Looking for my first japanese chef (Gyuto) knife

[socalkid]

Hello,

I have a 2 J.A. Henckels knife sets I got as gifts. They can get an awesome edge bet they are very soft compared to all my non kitchen knives. So I want to try a Japanese style chef knife, a Gyuto. Something with a single sided bevel, octagonal handle, vg-10 core and around $100, maybe a little more. With so many brands and makers I have no idea were to start looking. Any help would be great!

Thanks,

Chris

[rjdepedro]

Henckels makes a variety of grades, identified by insignias, line names, and other such methods. I would advise that you determine the grade of the models you have before you decide on what the best Gyuto knife would be to avoid that "soft" characteristic of the Henckels models.

I'm not going to ask why you want a Japanese version of a western knife, because I have my own preferences and recognize, and respect, that others have theirs. Almost all my kitchen knives are Japanese (made or style) and I would not change any of them for a chef's or Gyuto knife.

I'm going to assume that by soft you're referring to blades with high carbon content, which is one of the qualities that can make a knife easy to sharpen. These knives may dull a bit faster, but will also be easier to sharpen. But there are many more qualified members of the forum who can discuss that, so I will not dwell on that subject. Either.

You don't indicate if you want Japanese manufacturing for your Gyuto knife, but that would probably put you past your $100 ballpark price for most 6"+ models, especially for a laminated blade with the additional specification of a VG-10 core. Many, if not most, knives that use VG-10 are manufactured in Japan.

Henckels has a line of Gyuto knives, the Miyabi, but made using their Friodur stainless steel, so these would be out of your specs.

Al Mar has a line of Gyuto style knives, which are excellent and still very affordable, but they're laminated VG-2/400 (VG-2 core inside 400 steel). I can definitely recommend them. If your heart is set on VG-10, you should check out their Ultra-Chef Damascus VG-10 line, which are very fine knives for the price. Their 6" chef/utility is in your price range. All of these Al Mar knives are made in Japan by top makers.

Kanetsune has Gyuto knives, and you might find some retailed around your price range, but I would suggest to try the Al Mar blades.

[socalkid]

rjdepedro,

VG-10 isnt a must, its just what all my japanese made folding knives are made of and I like it. When I said "soft" I was referring to the hardness of the steel, Im not sure if high carbon content has much to do with the heat treatment and how hard the manufacture decides to keep their knives. I picked the Gyuto style of blade because its what Im most familiar with and from what I've read its a good first knife for someone unfamiliar with japanese blade shapes and their intended uses. I want a japanese made kitchen knife because Ive never used one and would like to try one out.

Thanks,

Chris

[Ryanol]

Not sure if they make gyutos but thumbs up for shun.

I've got a couple of deba's, a Nakiri and a yanagiba from shun pro, vg10 - nice knives but I don't think any of them are in your price range.

[bluntcut]

If you want a low maint steel, get

$80 Tojiro DP 210mm VG-10 Wa-Gyuto: A good start
or
$170 Richmond Addict 2 CPM154 Octagon Rosewood handle: stainless route
or
zdp-189, aeb-l, s35vn, ...

[rjdepedro]

rjdepedro,

VG-10 isnt a must, its just what all my japanese made folding knives are made of and I like it. When I said "soft" I was referring to the hardness of the steel, Im not sure if high carbon content has much to do with the heat treatment and how hard the manufacture decides to keep their knives. I picked the Gyuto style of blade because its what Im most familiar with and from what I've read its a good first knife for someone unfamiliar with japanese blade shapes and their intended uses. I want a japanese made kitchen knife because Ive never used one and would like to try one out.

Thanks,

Chris

Well Chris, I can see that you certainly know your blades, and you're clearly making an informed decision. Not everyone understands the importance of heat treatment for the final product, and the performance of cutlery.

The posts from Ryanol and Bluntcut seem to be making some good suggestions that you should probably check out. I've never seen any Gyutos in the Shun line (in the "classic" sense, since their knives have a very unique style), but they are indeed excellent knives. I have one that has been a joy to use. Still, I think you will be satisfied with the Al Mar knives, and I totally recommend them.

Whatever you choose, I hope that you can enjoy it, and the resulting meals as well.

RJ

[justsomedude]

I love the Richmond Artifex!
It is an amazing line for getting into Japanese chef's knives, they make a 210mm and 240mm gyuto for $70 and $90, both huge bargains. The AEB-L steel is extremely corrosion resistant, chip resistant, and stupidly easy to sharpen and maintain. It doesn't keep the edge like some of the harder VG-10 blades that many of the Japanese manufacturers use but it gets hair-whittling sharp with literally six strokes on the green strop.
Blade and handle dimensions are fantastic as well, the only place this knife suffers is in the finish but that is how he is able to sell it at such a great price!
If you were going to spend twice as much on the same knife I would look into the Blazen laminated Gyuto.

[Benuser]

A little remark on the supposed edge retention of VG-10: its dulling curve is a little different of that of most other steels. The spectacular sharpness fresh from the stones is lost very quickly, the remaining sharpness - which is far from spectacular but sufficient for average kitchen tasks - will stay almost forever.

[rjdepedro]

After reading the posts from justsomedude and Benuser, I have to say that I'm pleasantly surprised how you can get intelligent and very well informed comments from posters on the Kitchen Cutlery and Tools forum, when discussing kitchen knives, which are supposed to be utilitarian and unexciting. Great posts to all. This is lacking from many threads in other forums. It probably shows that kitchen cutlery might be the most used blades.

I'm sure Chris will appreciate everyone's contribution, because I've certainly enjoyed the thread, and I'm not the one who has to make a decision. I hope that he can let us know his final decision and how his purchase worked out; in this same thread or in a new one.

[looker]

The Henkels Miyabi knives are available in different blade steels; including VG-10. *http://www.surlatable.com/product/PR...n-Chefs-Knives. *I got a couple of my friends to get one and snagged one myself at the *~$100 *introduction price. The overall quality, f&f...are way above anything*I've seen in this price range. Plus, their VG-10 behaves and performs better than others. The only downside is the price has gone up considerably.

For the money, the Richmond Artifex mentioned *above looks good and maybe a better deal.

[kalaeb]

If you up your budget just a little more there is a world of possibilites from Konosuke, Richmond, Moritaka, Hiromoto...at the 100 mark, the artifex is your best bet. Aebl steel and made in the usa.

If you can take another 40.00 and get yourself a king combo stone and learn how to sharpen. A kitchen knife is only as good as it is maintained.

[rjdepedro]

The Henkels Miyabi knives are available in different blade steels; including VG-10.

I stand corrected. And happily so.

I had only seen the Friodur process stainless steel blades, and was unaware that the Miyabi line included these Kaizen models with Cryodur process Damascus blades with VG-10. I followed your link and the specs seem very good, and the knives look fine indeed. You definitely got a steal, because at the current price I would still consider them a good buy.

[socalkid]

Hello,

Thanks for all the help guys! I ended up getting a Tojiro DP 210mm VG-10 Wa-Gyuto... and a Tojiro DP Deba 155mm... and 3 Naniwa Super Stone's in 1000, 3000, and 5000. Should be here in about a week. Ill have a follow up when I test them out and see how I like them.

Thanks,

Chris

[HowToWin]

This all depends on whether you are a collector or a true utilitarian, for a sharp knife, that stays sharp on a japanese style look into santoku.

[rjdepedro]

Hello,

Thanks for all the help guys! I ended up getting a Tojiro DP 210mm VG-10 Wa-Gyuto... and a Tojiro DP Deba 155mm... and 3 Naniwa Super Stone's in 1000, 3000, and 5000. Should be here in about a week. Ill have a follow up when I test them out and see how I like them.

Thanks,

Chris

You seem to have made a great selection. Kudos to bluntcut for suggesting that line, which I didn't know. I liked the very traditional look of the line, with the plain wood handles. And I also want to thank everyone who posted, because many comments had great insights, some even making me feel a bit ignorant (in a good way), and pointing out some areas where I should learn some more. And of course, suggesting some top cutlery for serious kitchen use.

This has been a great thread, and I've enjoyed reading the posts and contributing a couple of my own. I'm definitely looking forward to your update, because it seems you've set yourself up with a full set, including water stones, that would make Chef Masaharu Morimoto proud. Good for you!

[looker]

Socalkid,

Nice picks!!! Please follow up, after you get a chance to play with them.


rjdepedro,

No worries. I didn’t know they had so many different models initially either. And the fact that they all sort of look and have similar names didn’t help. In addition to German steel and VG-10 models, they also have SG-2 and ZDP-189 versions. Here’s a in depth review http://zknives.com/knives/kitchen/kt...bi/index.shtml

If you ever get a chance to handle one, please do. The level of craftsmanship and attention to details on it are immaculate. Admittedly, I don’t use it much, but it keeps my family away from my stuff.


Re: Almost all my kitchen knives are Japanese (made or style) and I would not change any of them for a chef's or Gyuto knife.
Can you elaborate on what you are using as your main chef’s knife type knife?

[rjdepedro]

If you ever get a chance to handle one, please do. The level of craftsmanship and attention to details on it are immaculate. Admittedly, I don’t use it much, but it keeps my family away from my stuff.


Re: Almost all my kitchen knives are Japanese (made or style) and I would not change any of them for a chef's or Gyuto knife.
Can you elaborate on what you are using as your main chef’s knife type knife?

Well looker, I generally don't like talking about knives (can you tell?), but I will force myself to do that, just this once...

I cook everyday. My main everyday kitchen knives are not my best, but they're the ones I don't mind using daily, and abusing sometimes. They're a japanese santoku (6.75") and an ai-deba (thinner spined deba, 6.5") with plain, but excellent stainless steel, and traditional plain wood handles, with an ajikiri (4") for smaller tasks. These I picked up in a little shop (along with several others) while living in London, and have no idea from what brand or maker they might be. The ai-deba is used for poultry, and the santoku for most everything else. They came in extemely plain cardboard boxes, with "Stainless Steel Made in Japan" and Japanese characters engraved on the blade of the Santoku and the same Japanese characters on the ai-deba and ajikiri. These are probably the most basic utilitarian knives in Japan, but they're all excellent cutters. The Japanese characters engraved on both probably mean something like "These are cheap knives but you'll enjoy them"... They must have a high carbon content since they're not totally stainless.

I alternate this trio with a set of Henckels Santokus (Five Star - Friodur, 7"; Vier Stern - Friodur, 7"; Professional S, 5.5") and parers (Twin Signature - Friodur, 3"; Forged Premio, 3"), which are all very solid performers in daily kitchen work.

For heavy vegetable chopping when I need large amounts for a big dinner, I will use a chukabocho (Chinese cleaver,7") that I picked up in a stand in Borough Market, but has the same Japanese characters engraved as my daily use knives. This has a round wood dark-stained handle, very comfortable, and it is an amazing chopper. It can go through lots of vegetables with far less effort than the Santoku. I consider it too big for casual everyday kitchen use, so I use the santoku for daily veggie duty.

A Kushenprofi Osaka brand Nakiri (X30Cr13, 6.5") that I also bought in London is the ultimate blade for vegetable work, but it's a better grade of knife with western style handle, and I save it for occasional use, paired with a Damascus Santoku that was a gift, and is my ultimate kitchen knife, with full tang, rosewood handle and decorative rivets. I've no idea on maker or specs for this one since the wooden box and enclosed card are all in Japanese.

Beside these, I have a couple of Chroma Haiku Yanagiba (Molybdenum Vanadium, 10.75" and 8.25") with single grind blades that are very competent slicers, but these spend a lot of time in the knife case (Shun), since they're best applied to specialized slicing, which I don't do often.

An Al Mar Ultra-Chef Santoku (VG-10, 33 layer Damascus hardened to 60-72 Rockwell on "C" scale, 7") was lent to a professional chef friend, and it has not been returned. Never do this; I will never do it again.

[looker]

Rjdepedro,
Wow. Thanks for sharing and breaking your vow of silence. You’ve got quite a collection of knives going on there.

[rjdepedro]

You made me do it, looker! My excuses to socalkid, for almost hijacking his thread before he has a chance to receive and test his new knives.

I have a few more, including western kitchen knives (Wusthof, Henckels, and others), that are boxed up and haven't been used for years now, but those mentioned are the knives that see frequent or daily use. I also have a little Higo Shun folding steak knife (black pakkawood, VG-10, 3.5") in my "bug out" bag, that goes everywhere and has done every kind of paring knife job, including filleting chicken breasts, but has never been used as a steak knife.

And now I'm looking at those Tojiro knives that Chris ordered or the Miyabi Kaizen that you pointed out, and wondering if I can justify retiring some from my set. Or maybe some of the lines kalaeb suggests in his post.

But perhaps I should just upgrade my membership so I can upload some pictures, and maybe start a thread about kitchen knife rotation or something similar, so I can take my mind off that... It would be far more cheaper!


Thanks for your interest, and also thanks to Chris for starting THIS thread.

[looker]

Having too many knives is no excuse to not get more! *Like you, I used to have a box of old knives that I had retired or found at garage sales. * I ended up restoring a bunch of them to usable condition and donating them to a local charity that feeds the needy. *I'm sure any of your local places that does the same would love to have them.