Do You Buy Your Knives For Self Defence?

**Ares1307** · 08-25-2012, 04:14 AM

Please read this post before telling me Im an idiot for thinking a knife is a good self defence weapon. I believe knives should be used as tools, however, if ever in a situation where I have to defend the lives of my wife and children and my knife is all I have.. I will use it.

I want to ask if when you BUY your knives for EDC do you think of it a JUST a tool.. or as a weapon also? I EDC two knives for work and two other knives for outside of work. At work I have to carry small knives so I carry a Benchmade Mini Bone Collector and a ZT0350SW, which both are perfect for where I work. But outside of work I carry a full size Benchmade Griptilian 550HG and a ZT0200. So one knife is more of a slicer and the other is more of a heavy cutter that can handle more. But when I carry outside of work I carry bigger knives because I like to use bigger knives as tools but also incase I ever have to use them for defence. I am a strong believer in being prepared.. I would rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

I just want to know how my fellow knife nuts feel about this. Please note I do not believe any knife is a good choice for self defence and I do have a pistol for that purpose.. but I dont carry it everyday like I do my knives. Also, I do not buy my knives for the sole purpose of self defence.... in my mind they are a kind of last line of defence.

**Goosey** · 08-25-2012, 05:23 AM

It's not legal here to carry a concealed knife for self defence, so... no.

I would use my tool for self-defence against an animal or person if necessary, but I don't look for knives just because of features that would help in such a scenario (eg I don't need super rough grippy G10)

**singularity35** · 08-25-2012, 05:43 AM

What about the "it will be taken away and used against you" crowd?

**meanwhile** · 08-25-2012, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by singularity35

What about the "it will be taken away and used against you" crowd?

That's relatively unlikely. The problem with small knives for self defense is quite different - they're poor very weapons as regards stopping power, which is what you need in a self defense weapon to use in a situation where your life is *really* at risk. Well - that's the problem once you get past THE biggest problems, which is that in a real mugging you'd have a knife at your throat without warning and that a lot of people who obsess about carrying weapons do so because they are angry or scared in general, and will resort to them in situations where they are not legally justified (e.g. you get yourself into a fight, panic, and BANG! or in this case stab.) Which is great if you really, REALLY like HBO's "Oz", but otherwise less so.

***Morrow*** · 08-25-2012, 07:01 AM

Threads like this belong in Prac Tac....moving it there.

**Kai Winters** · 08-25-2012, 08:27 AM

The majority of "things" one carries in pockets or a purse can be easily used as a very effective weapon.
I knife is a very close up and personal weapon. I'd not want to get that close to anyone I have to defend myself against.
A rolled up newspaper or magazine is a very dangerous weapon...ah well I don't carry one any more, just my ereader and it is not a very good weapon...
I carry a knife to cut stuff first and foremost, a weapon last.

**SeaxyBeast** · 08-25-2012, 02:19 PM

Sure I consider SD concerns when choosing a knife for edc, but those concerns get balanced against convenience of carry and versatility. What that comes down to in practice is that I want a knife that works well for everyday cutting tasks, but after I determine this I also look for a pocket clip, one-handed opening and slightly more blade than I'd choose in a strict utility edc. On the other side of things, though, I'm not too interested in 'tactical' features that make the knife less convenient for carry or cutting tasks.

Value price example - between a Delica, a Tenacious, a Resilience, an Endura, a higher end CRKT M-series with flippers, and a CS Recon I'd probably be looking at the Endura or the Resilience first as the best balance of edc convenience and sd potential.

**wildmike** · 08-25-2012, 02:47 PM

No! Not my main consideration when choosing a knife. However any of my knifes could be pressed into defensive use.

For self defense I prefer something that has greater reach, impact and destructive power than most knives. For example a walking stick or staff or my favorite a tomahawk or hatchet.

**Insipid Moniker** · 08-25-2012, 02:54 PM

Not really, but there are a lot of knives designed with self defense in mind that I really like. I enjoy folders with acute points, positive grip, strong locks and easy, quick deployment. That means that I own several "dedicated SD" blades that I only use for utility. I don't particularly think of them as weapons, nor would I describe them as such, but I suppose it's kind of nice that they could be used that way in a worse possible scenario.

**killgar** · 08-25-2012, 03:00 PM

I always carry at least two knives, a fixed-blade and a folder. The folder is exclusively for utility purposes and I would never consider it for use in self-defense. In choosing my EDC fixed-blades I take a few different matters into account. Those matters are-

1. Naturally, is it legal.

2. If I absolutely had to rely on it in a desperate self-defense situation, would it serve that purpose well? As in, is it a strong knife, does it have a tip that would penetrate effectively, will it take a sharp edge, does it have a secure grip/handle? Does it have a guard or other feature to prevent my hand from slipping over the blade?

3. Will it be useful as a basic cutting tool? A few examples are- cutting heavy plastic packing straps that I would not want to use my folder on because I have to pry the blade between the straps and a wooden crate in order to cut them. Such a use might snap a regular folder blade. Also, performing "dirty" cutting tasks that would get a folder filled with dirt, dust, crud, etc. A fixed-blade is a lot easier to clean.

4. Size. The smallest fixed-blade I will carry is one with a 4" blade and the largest would be one with a 6" blade. The largest one I currently carry has a 5" blade.

5. Could I use the knife as an emergency pry-bar? My 4" blade is 3/16ths of an inch thick. My 5" blade is close to 1/4" thick.

I look upon my fixed-blades as "knives". They can serve a variety of uses, including self-defense.

**Ares1307** · 08-25-2012, 06:38 PM

Thanks alot for all of your feedback. When I look at a knife to purchase or trade for I look at its practicallity first, but I have to admit looks are really what put a knife over the top for me. But I do consider self defence when I pick a knife for EDC.. but its usually the last thing I think about when buying a knife. I dont base my purchases on just self defence, but it is something I consider. Its always in the back of my mind when buying a knife as a tool that one day I may have to use this tool to defend myself or my family.. So I try to buy a knife that will do what I need it to on a daily basis, and be a good last line of defence if need be. With that said, if the day ever comes where I have to defend myself and my family.. I hope to have at least my pistol on me.

I agree with Killgar about using a fixed blade rather than a folder. But I only EDC folders, I keep a double edged fixed blade in my car at all times and Im getting a new custom made fixed blade that is about 10 inches overall with a thickness of 1/4 inch which will take the place of my double edge, but I will most likely carry both in my car at all times... unless I have the custom on my belt.

**fuzzwuzz133** · 08-26-2012, 07:45 PM

The thing is, the amount of violence one would take to actually successfully use a knife as self defense is incredible. And it'd take a while. A knife would be my final last ditch weapon. Gun first, screwdriver second, car third, sand fourth, knife fifth.

**KennyB** · 08-27-2012, 12:34 AM

Why does everyone just flash to stabbing when talking about knives and defending themselves? If we want to talk about a knife being ineffective as a self-defense tool or option, then what we should really be talking about is stabbing someone being an ineffective self-defense option. Stabbing someone works well for prison shankings, for a self-defense encounter where you're not interested in killing the other people it really won't benefit you anything. Meanwhile the whole topic of how long a blade needs to be... Here's food for thought: It's recommended that handgun rounds have 12-16" of penetration to be able to pierce vital organs and account for any odd angle of the body that would prevent vitals from being reached. So if a bullet that penetrates 8" is not good enough, why would a 8" knife that will certainly not be able to penetrate any deeper be any better? Unless you're carrying around a big 12-16" dirk, the stabbing-people-in-their-organs game is going to work less as self-defense and more as assassination. There is a real difference between a blade that can effectively kill by stabbing, and one that will eventually kill by stabbing. Ever notice how long most military bayonets are? The only reason combat knives like the KaBar aren't longer is because that would limit their usefulness as utility knives.

I like Martial Blade Concepts, it shares the philosophy of cutting muscle groups to stop an attack rather than try to kill the person by perforating their body with hundreds of little holes. In one of the DVDs they explain that a person with a severed carotid artery can still live up to 20-40 seconds and show a man being stabbed in a bar, feverishly fighting back the entire time and eventually succumbing well after the attack is over. Meanwhile, if you severed or severely damaged a persons quadriceps, it's unlikely they will stay standing or be able to pursue you. So you don't HAVE to kill them in order to defend yourself.

I think part of the reason people view the knife as a poor self-defense option is because they're envisioning it in a poor self-defense use. Stabbing people over and over in their vital organs works best in an ambush, that's why it works so well for prison shankings. In terms of preventing yourself from being hurt, people can still fight back pretty hard when having lots of holes poked in them. Would you rather sit and try your luck stabbing until they've stopped, or study something like MBC that shows you techniques to quickly target specific muscle groups with the express point in disabling the attacker and preventing harm...

Again, one school of thought revolves purely around killing a person, the other around defending yourself... It shouldn't be too hard to figure out which is more prudent when considering the phrase "self defense".

**Ares1307** · 08-27-2012, 02:34 AM

Very valid points KennyB. I have to admit.. Ive never heard of MBC, I will be doing some research on it though. It sounds like it could be quite useful to those of us who EDC knives more than guns. I have a firearm that I carry when I go out of town, but I dont ever wear it in town unless Im in the desert or the mountains. In town I only ever carry my knives, and Im not naive enough to think nobody would dare attack me or my family. So I see the value in researching tactics and acquiring skills with any weapon. Thank you for sharing your opinions and your knowlege my friends.

**killgar** · 08-27-2012, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by KennyB

Why does everyone just flash to stabbing when talking about knives and defending themselves? If we want to talk about a knife being ineffective as a self-defense tool or option, then what we should really be talking about is stabbing someone being an ineffective self-defense option. Stabbing someone works well for prison shankings, for a self-defense encounter where you're not interested in killing the other people it really won't benefit you anything. Meanwhile the whole topic of how long a blade needs to be... Here's food for thought: It's recommended that handgun rounds have 12-16" of penetration to be able to pierce vital organs and account for any odd angle of the body that would prevent vitals from being reached. So if a bullet that penetrates 8" is not good enough, why would a 8" knife that will certainly not be able to penetrate any deeper be any better? Unless you're carrying around a big 12-16" dirk, the stabbing-people-in-their-organs game is going to work less as self-defense and more as assassination. There is a real difference between a blade that can effectively kill by stabbing, and one that will eventually kill by stabbing. Ever notice how long most military bayonets are? The only reason combat knives like the KaBar aren't longer is because that would limit their usefulness as utility knives.

I like Martial Blade Concepts, it shares the philosophy of cutting muscle groups to stop an attack rather than try to kill the person by perforating their body with hundreds of little holes. In one of the DVDs they explain that a person with a severed carotid artery can still live up to 20-40 seconds and show a man being stabbed in a bar, feverishly fighting back the entire time and eventually succumbing well after the attack is over. Meanwhile, if you severed or severely damaged a persons quadriceps, it's unlikely they will stay standing or be able to pursue you. So you don't HAVE to kill them in order to defend yourself.

I think part of the reason people view the knife as a poor self-defense option is because they're envisioning it in a poor self-defense use. Stabbing people over and over in their vital organs works best in an ambush, that's why it works so well for prison shankings. In terms of preventing yourself from being hurt, people can still fight back pretty hard when having lots of holes poked in them. Would you rather sit and try your luck stabbing until they've stopped, or study something like MBC that shows you techniques to quickly target specific muscle groups with the express point in disabling the attacker and preventing harm...

Again, one school of thought revolves purely around killing a person, the other around defending yourself... It shouldn't be too hard to figure out which is more prudent when considering the phrase "self defense".

You seem to be speaking in absolutes in you opposition to "stabbing". There are no absolutes in self-defense. Sometimes slashing can be very effective in stopping an attacker, and sometimes stabbing can be very effective. I've posted links on this forum to news stories of people who effectively defended themselves by stabbing their attackers, I can't argue with documented success.

Not all stab wounds are lethal. And a stab wound does not need to be lethal to stop an attack.

Slashing certainly has it's limitations. For one thing, it requires that you move the blade ACROSS your attacker, as opposed to thrusting it INTO your attacker. Slashing requires a more precise movement and judgment of distance to acheive maximum effect, especially if you are trying to target specific muscles, tendons, etc. Such precise actions can prove difficult during the frenzy of an attack. Also, if your attacker is wearing thick clothing, then penetration becomes an issue.

It is also unwise to believe that slashing is somehow a "less-than-lethal" tactic. People can easily bleed to death from severed arteries. And a defender doesn't always get to dictate what their knife will cut during the frenzy of a fight.

I look upon a stab or thrust as a punch with a knife blade at the end of it. When I punch at a target, I punch INTO it, as opposed to ACROSS it. If I feel the need to use a knife against another person, then I want the greatest chance of success for inflicting trauma.

Lastly, on the subject of killing an attacker, if I feel the need to pull my knife it's because I have determined that someone is posing a direct threat to my life. In such a situation, I couldn't care less if the guy dies. And if I specifically need to inflict lethal wounds in order to stop him from killing me, then that is exactly what I will do, and without hesitation. And If I have to answer for my actions in courst after, so be it.

I have a very simple definition of self-defense, and it is- "Doing whatever you have to in order to survive against an attack". The key words being "whatever" and "survive".

Just because a particular method is taught, or looks good, or is popular, doesn't mean that it is effective in real-word self-defense. If you can link or post a news report of an MBC student effectively using MBC methods to survive an attack I would be very interested in reading it. Like I said, I don't argue with success.

**mercop** · 08-27-2012, 04:30 PM

www.selfdefenseknivesthatareawesome.com

**singularity35** · 08-30-2012, 02:38 AM

Originally Posted by killgar

Just because a particular method is taught, or looks good, or is popular, doesn't mean that it is effective in real-word self-defense. If you can link or post a news report of an MBC student effectively using MBC methods to survive an attack I would be very interested in reading it. Like I said, I don't argue with success.

Yep, and a knife design too.

**HeavyHanded** · 08-30-2012, 06:15 AM

SD is never my first consideration for a given knife, utility is. As mentioned, carrying a knife as a weapon is illegal in many localities. My EDU knives are usually 3.5" or less, 7" overall, whether they're fixed or folder. The only time I carry a folder is if I'm wearing a suit, or going to be wearing only shorts on a hot day, otherwise always fixed. The knife has to have or be capable of being fit to a good, comfortable sheath and that sheath has to have all the same attributes of a good handgun sheath - retention, but still easy to draw and resheath with one hand, comfortable IWB. The knife itself needs a handle that's large enough for good control relative to the blade length and allow multiple gripping options. I use the same knife for everything and rotate/sharpen as needed - if it needs to peel a potato, cut a tag off my kids shirt, or pick a jumper off a circuit board, that's what it had better be able to do. If it can fill multiple roles it can be used for SD as well. As for application, I train essentially FMA which includes MBC strategies as well as adaptation from other MA I've studied. It has to slash as well as stab, either way I'm going into the target. I seldom use slashes without reinforcement from my free hand, and if I do its generally as a redirection with the hand that happens to have a knife in it. My whole goal is to inflict damage and escape with room to spare. I do a lot of drills from a rapid sprawl in anticipation of all the MMA knowledge out there. Primary targets are arms (slashes or stabs depending), front of the shoulder (stab), hip socket/trochanter (stab), front of thigh (stab or slash) and if necessary the neck, face, side of head (stab or slash). I've used everything I practice in open sparring and feel quite comfortable it works, esp as much of it can and has been used by me in an open hands variation as well as with dummy knives.