So...hmmm( ammo question)

[Nntrance]

I have a question for all you gun and ammo experts. I always see people suggesting( not on this forum) heavy,hard-cast,Fmj ,etc on large attacking game like a potential bear attack or Mountain lions. But why is that same ammo considered such a poor choice on humans? I always have HP's in my guns and I'm not a hunter but I have always seen people suggest that. I would just imagine that the same issues with Ball ammo would still exist when in use against animals especially against a charging bear or cougar.

[Armedtetrapod]

The main reason people suggest hollow points for carry as defense against humans is that you will most likely be in a crowded place during the incident, and if that bullet goes out the other side of the person, then it is likely to hit an innocent bystander. When being attacked my a bear or cougar or whatever, you are going to be in the mountains/woods and over penetration will not be an issue, so there is no problem with FMJ's.

[ednemo]

To add to what Armedtetrapod said, a bear and other large animals have extremely dense muscles with heavy bone structures. You don't want to flatten hollowpoint against a bear's skull or lodge an HP in the muscle, you want as much penetration as possible.

[mwerner]

Humans are really rather lightly-constructed critters. One need only penetrate a few inches to get to vital organs and vessels, and the bones surrounding the chest cavity are rather porous and flexible.
Mountain lions are not particularly "tough" and can be taken down with any caliber/bullet combo suitable for deer, but if you were trying to stop an attack you'd want kitty down pronto.
Bears are a completely different case. Very large, very durable, and fast as well.
The paradigm for large, dangerous game has always been heavy, solid slugs that will "break down" the critter; going through bone and tissue alike.

[Unk]

The purpose of a self defense load is to STOP an attack which usually means breaking the electronics, structure or hydraulics - or in other words, central nervous, skeleton or blood systems.

It does not take an elephant rifle to seriously interrupt those systems in a human however would be foolish to use your .45 acp's WW Ranger T 230 gr +P JHP on Dumbo.

Match the tools to the job..solids for the elephant, properly constructed JHP for soft skinned critters..my story and sticking to it.

Best.

[will_1400]

Pretty much what everyone said. I'd like to add that I know a few hunting guides and they flat out will not go into bear (especially brown bear) territory without a 12 gauge loaded with slugs, a .45-70 lever gun, or a .30-06 bolt gun with hot loads (minimum with a .375 H&H with medium loads being preferred in many cases in my experience).

With regards to human targets, I recommend sticking with loads that have passed the FBI's performance standards. See this link for service caliber (.38 special through .45 ACP) details: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

[killgar]

Not to question the knowledge of those who have answerd here, but if you are interested in arming yourself for defense against wildlife then I would advise that you consult with experienced hunters and those who have verifiable experience with shooting attacking animals. What ammo you carry could make the difference between life or death, and for such a matter, I would quite frankly prefer to rely on people who I knew were experienced in such matters. Not anonymous strangers on the internet.

[Nntrance]

Not to question the knowledge of those who have answerd here, but if you are interested in arming yourself for defense against wildlife then I would advise that you consult with experienced hunters and those who have verifiable experience with shooting attacking animals. What ammo you carry could make the difference between life or death, and for such a matter, I would quite frankly prefer to rely on people who I knew were experienced in such matters. Not anonymous strangers on the internet.

I agree, However I am not going to be battling bears anytime soon so I don't think I need to consult professional hunters just right this minute. I was just wondering as to why so many posters would recommend that particular ammo.

[Nntrance]

But perhaps I wasn't clear enough about what I was asking. I just mean wouldn't Ball ammo react the same way it does on humans? Wouldn't a solid,pointed round just punch a small hole through an animal the same way?

[Unk]

Nntrance, killgar makes a good general point as to the I Net as a reliable source.

In general a 5.56 FMJ punches holes in people but often tumbles before or after hitting bones..I shoot that round[aka .223] at colony varmints [prairie dogs] with a ballistic tip[ plastic point] at high speeds..hits are destructive sometimes resulting in "air dogs" but their big feature besides accuracy is that they do not ricochet as they blow up on contact with the ground. What is a good round for a prairie dog would be a very poor choice on a whitetail deer.

Best.

PS: I may not be real.

[Bo T]

The only time that I have heard solids advised is on thick skinned African game. i.e. elephant, rhino, and water buffalo. The reason was penetration. For cougar, if it would stop a heavily clothed person in their tracks it should stop the cougar. For Grizzly, it depends on the cartridge you are using. A 460 Weatherby with a solid will not be as effective as a 460 Weatherby expanding or Barnes X. When penetration is an issue a solid might be needed. It's about effectiveness of a bullet at a given velocity. Nothing magical about solids.

[Dago Red]

I am not a guide or a professional hunter. I do love guns, hunt, shoot and reload. I also read papers, articles and posts (on another forum) by professional hunters. By all means if you need opinions straight from one of those people seek them out, I doubt they're going to say anything different. But first hand accounts never hurt.

That said, I have never known an instance where ball ammo would be better for any type of killing from a handgun. Guys have given the reasons above. In a rifle shooting solids guys are going for penetration, and trying their best for hear/lung/brain. There are some new expanding bullets though that penetrate so well, and retain so much of their weight that many hunters don't even carry solids unless their PH has asked them to. For black bear the right pistol with good commercially loaded hollow points would be good medicine. If I were going in grizzly country regularly I'd carry a rifle. Any handgun heavy enough that I'd feel comfortable in grizzly country would be big enough I might as well carry the rifle.

I actually know somebody (for some reason it is usually older guys that haven't kept up with bullet and ammo advancement that tout ball ammo as great, maybe older expanding ammo wasn't as reliable) who carries round nose in his 357. not saying it isn't going to work, but I'd feel a lot better with some good Corbon Hollow points

Red

[Daddyo16]

The purpose of a self defense load is to STOP an attack which usually means breaking the electronics, structure or hydraulics - or in other words, central nervous, skeleton or blood systems.

I agree, although I have been amazed at the number of people who carry a weapon but for some reason cannot grasp this fundamental concept.

[Bo T]

"I actually know somebody (for some reason it is usually older guys that haven't kept up with bullet and ammo advancement that tout ball ammo as great, maybe older expanding ammo wasn't as reliable) who carries round nose in his 357. not saying it isn't going to work, but I'd feel a lot better with some good Corbon Hollow points "

About 30 years ago I talked with an old timer that had lived in Alaska. He advocated the 357 loaded alternating ball, HP. In one of the good DA revolvers. With the ball being the first out the chamber. He indicated the 357 was better than the 44 due to penetration. He said aim center of mass, get off as many shots as possible before the grizzly gets to you.

[will_1400]

I am not a guide or a professional hunter. I do love guns, hunt, shoot and reload. I also read papers, articles and posts (on another forum) by professional hunters. By all means if you need opinions straight from one of those people seek them out, I doubt they're going to say anything different. But first hand accounts never hurt.

That said, I have never known an instance where ball ammo would be better for any type of killing from a handgun. Guys have given the reasons above. In a rifle shooting solids guys are going for penetration, and trying their best for hear/lung/brain. There are some new expanding bullets though that penetrate so well, and retain so much of their weight that many hunters don't even carry solids unless their PH has asked them to. For black bear the right pistol with good commercially loaded hollow points would be good medicine. If I were going in grizzly country regularly I'd carry a rifle. Any handgun heavy enough that I'd feel comfortable in grizzly country would be big enough I might as well carry the rifle.

I actually know somebody (for some reason it is usually older guys that haven't kept up with bullet and ammo advancement that tout ball ammo as great, maybe older expanding ammo wasn't as reliable) who carries round nose in his 357. not saying it isn't going to work, but I'd feel a lot better with some good Corbon Hollow points
Red

In response to the bolded part, early hollow points just plain sucked, were hard to find, expensive, and most semi-autos wouldn't feed them reliably. It wasn't until after the 1986 Miami shootout that hollow point technology started getting better. Fast forward almost 30 years later, and there really isn't much difference between the major service calibers (9x19, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP) as far as actual performance goes. Each load has its own quirks as far as how each does through certain barriers (plywood, heavy clothes, windshields, etc), but they all penetrate to roughly the same depth and theres often only about a < .1" difference between the loads when fully expanded. Bottom line: with robust expanding ammunition, the major 3 service calibers, if you do your job, they'll do their's.

[Nntrance]

Speaking of .357's I am getting a Ruger gp100 6" blued this week. Gonna load it up with 125grain hollowpoints.

[res1cue]

But perhaps I wasn't clear enough about what I was asking. I just mean wouldn't Ball ammo react the same way it does on humans? Wouldn't a solid,pointed round just punch a small hole through an animal the same way?

The main thing here is penetration. For a human, penetration-wise, FMJ is overkill, it'll zip right through

For a giant animal, a hollowpoint may not penetrate enough, it could stop in soft tissue or muscle tissue without puncturing vital organs

At the end of the day, its penetration that kills. The concept behind advocating hollowpoints is that if you are in a self defense situation, the wider wound channel has more stopping power so you don't have to fire as many rounds (good for you), which translates into less holes in the bad guy (good for him too). I believe I remember seeing statistics that show that an altercation with FMJ required more bullets and ended up with more fatalities.


Edit: case in point, people who hunt large game with rifles or bows, usually look for rounds (or broadheads) that are specifically designed to expand slowly. This way it can penetrate a good deal before expansion starts

[will_1400]

The main thing here is penetration. For a human, penetration-wise, FMJ is overkill, it'll zip right through

For a giant animal, a hollowpoint may not penetrate enough, it could stop in soft tissue or muscle tissue without puncturing vital organs

At the end of the day, its penetration that kills. The concept behind advocating hollowpoints is that if you are in a self defense situation, the wider wound channel has more stopping power so you don't have to fire as many rounds (good for you), which translates into less holes in the bad guy (good for him too). I believe I remember seeing statistics that show that an altercation with FMJ required more bullets and ended up with more fatalities.


Edit: case in point, people who hunt large game with rifles or bows, usually look for rounds (or broadheads) that are specifically designed to expand slowly. This way it can penetrate a good deal before expansion starts

Pretty much this. Now I will say that I have a tendency to lean toward the high velocity stuff (124 gr +p vs 147 gr in 9mm, for example), but not at the expense of penetration. After all, penetration is pretty much everything (and that's pretty much what she said... and people say I have no sense of humor?)

[mwerner]

Way back when, writing in the late 20s and early 30s, guys like Elmer Kieth preferred big, heavy, SWC bullets for "serious" purposes. The Kieth-designed square-shoulder SWC was very widely used. He preferred the 170 grain job for .38 special and .357, and 250-grain numbers for the bigger calibers.
Of course, back then, the "standard" was the round-nosed swaged bullet at very modest velocity. The old "police service" type slug.
There were no quality jacketed hollow-point bullets back then, and expansion was going to be unlikely at pistol velocities anyway.. Kieth figured a good, deep-penetrating bullet with a square shoulder to "cut" through tissue would do maximum (and reliable) damage.

[mete]

I prefer premium bullets of JHP .Speer Gold Dot is designed for people but their 'Deep Curl' bullets are designed for animals [available for revolvers] .Swift A-frame and Barnes all copper do well on animals too.