Beyond 2012: Demographics and the GOP

[jdm61]

Those are unrelated issues. Even if we close down the borders, a substantial portion of the adult population of the US will be getting some kind of gummint check and their will be nobody to do the low end labor that incidentlayy contributes to FICA even if it doesn't contribute any federal income taxes. To say that we must turn our back on that which made us great and that which is right and at the core of our idieology because we are giving away too much money in the form of entitlements implies that entitlements are okay as long as immigrants are not collecting them among other things. Now if you want to control our borders merely to keep the riff raff out, then say it. What pisses me off is when people call it "patriotic" to demand that we exclude people who are EXACTLY like their ancestors who got in.

Not coicidentally we didn't have vast entitlement programs at the time either. If you want to throw open the borders and make everyone a citizen then you need to get rid of the entitlements too. Otherwise we need to be a little more choosy and there's no excuse for not controlling our own borders.

[quietmike]

Those are unrelated issues. Even if we close down the borders, a substantial portion of the adult population of the US will be getting some kind of gummint check and their will be nobody to do the low end labor that incidentlayy contributes to FICA even if it doesn't contribute any federal income taxes. To say that we must turn our back on that which made us great and that which is right and at the core of our idieology because we are giving away too much money in the form of entitlements implies that entitlements are okay as long as immigrants are not collecting them among other things. Now if you want to control our borders merely to keep the riff raff out, then say it. What pisses me off is when people call it "patriotic" to demand that we exclude people who are EXACTLY like their ancestors who got in.

Our ancestors didn't come here and automatically expect to be taken care of by someone else. Yes we should keep out the riff-raff. If you don't have enough skills/knowledge to even support yourself then why should you be allowed to come here to be a bum, when we have an abundance of homegrown bums of our own?

[bulgron]

I say, throw open the borders, but end all entitlement spending. Things will sort themself out real quick as all the people on goobernent assistance suddenly realize that they can mow lawns, scrub toilets, roof houses, etc. after all.

We should also end minimum wage laws. It's minimum wage laws that are allowing illegal aliens to underprice American labor.

[jdm61]

Mike, "farm worker" was considered to be a sufficient skill to get you in up until 1921. Like I said, giving money to bums and letting people immigrate are two completely different issues.

Our ancestors didn't come here and automatically expect to be taken care of by someone else. Yes we should keep out the riff-raff. If you don't have enough skills/knowledge to even support yourself then why should you be allowed to come here to be a bum, when we have an abundance of homegrown bums of our own?

[jdm61]

Bulgron, the illegal farm workers that I know of are working for at least minimum wage if not more and they want as MANY hours as you can give them, at least in Kentucky.

I say, throw open the borders, but end all entitlement spending. Things will sort themself out real quick as all the people on goobernent assistance suddenly realize that they can mow lawns, scrub toilets, roof houses, etc. after all.

We should also end minimum wage laws. It's minimum wage laws that are allowing illegal aliens to underprice American labor.

[not2sharp]

Not coicidentally we didn't have vast entitlement programs at the time either. If you want to throw open the borders and make everyone a citizen then you need to get rid of the entitlements too. Otherwise we need to be a little more choosy and there's no excuse for not controlling our own borders.

That is the key to our future; whether the dependent classes will continue to come and squat here once the goodie machine is turned off.

n2s

[Noctis3880]

I say, throw open the borders, but end all entitlement spending. Things will sort themself out real quick as all the people on goobernent assistance suddenly realize that they can mow lawns, scrub toilets, roof houses, etc. after all.

We should also end minimum wage laws. It's minimum wage laws that are allowing illegal aliens to underprice American labor.

I'm not too sure about throwing open the borders. In theory the economy would boom if they all paid taxes(though so would spending). But any Americans not willing to work for the lowest wages would not hold a job. Our only advantage as of now is that there is some work that simply cannot be outsourced(welding for example) because that immigrant labor cannot legally be brought here. And our own labor is a limited resource because of our low population(300 million VS the 2 some billion in India and China for example).

I feel we should do the opposite. Lower wages sure, but be more stringent in guarding our borders, deport illegals, and close up any laws allowing them to simply drag their entire extended family from overseas simply because they have one US born child here. Only when job availability exceeds those wiling to work should we open up our borders again in order to fill that job demand.

I simply don't feel a massive inflow of immigrants is helpful if they make all the money here, but send most of it overseas to be spent there, in other nation's economy.

[jdm61]

The reason that they send their money "back there" is because their families are NOT here, and they know that they cannot remain.

I'm not too sure about throwing open the borders. In theory the economy would boom if they all paid taxes(though so would spending). But any Americans not willing to work for the lowest wages would not hold a job. Our only advantage as of now is that there is some work that simply cannot be outsourced(welding for example) because that immigrant labor cannot legally be brought here. And our own labor is a limited resource because of our low population(300 million VS the 2 some billion in India and China for example).

I feel we should do the opposite. Lower wages sure, but be more stringent in guarding our borders, deport illegals, and close up any laws allowing them to simply drag their entire extended family from overseas simply because they have one US born child here. Only when job availability exceeds those wiling to work should we open up our borders again in order to fill that job demand.

I simply don't feel a massive inflow of immigrants is helpful if they make all the money here, but send most of it overseas to be spent there, in other nation's economy.

[Noctis3880]

The reason that they send their money "back there" is because their families are NOT here, and they know that they cannot remain.

Okay, but let's consider that for a moment.

Let's just assume that we open our borders and invite everybody and their extended family over. All their in-laws, sisters, brothers, aunts, uncles, nieces, and nephews. Then consider what would happen if all their relatives were brought over as well. Considering the total population of the world(11 billion), how long do you suppose that could continue until things get ugly? How long before you or I or our families have to work for a nickel an hour because labor is so cheap and plentiful that there's a vicious competition for who's willing to work for the lowest bidder? Don't want to do construction work for a nickel an hour, 16 hours a day? Fine, there's billions more where you came from.

[jdm61]

Thats how we became great.

Okay, but let's consider that for a moment.

Let's just assume that we open our borders and invite everybody and their extended family over. All their in-laws, sisters, brothers, aunts, uncles, nieces, and nephews. Then consider what would happen if all their relatives were brought over as well. Considering the total population of the world(11 billion), how long do you suppose that could continue until things get ugly? How long before you or I or our families have to work for a nickel an hour because labor is so cheap and plentiful that there's a vicious competition for who's willing to work for the lowest bidder? Don't want to do construction work for a nickel an hour, 16 hours a day? Fine, there's billions more where you came from.

[Noctis3880]

Thats how we became great.

Yes, but didn't we have more work available than people willing to work them? It seems like we have the opposite problem right now, so I'm not sure why the same solution would have an opposite effect. I'd also put into context the population of the world then as opposed to now, just for reference.

[Scott Free]

Yes, but didn't we have more work available than people willing to work them?

All those people will need houses and cars and refrigerators. More people = more work.

[quietmike]

All those people will need houses and cars and refrigerators. More people = more work.

Unless they buy imports.

[BlackKnight86]

Actually, we survived quite well from 1787 until 1921 with almost no immigration "border control" at all. Even after we consolidated our screening process in the 1890's we never tuinred away any more than 2% of the people that showed up at places like Eliis Island.

Are you equating "turning away" with "border control"?

Jim Crow was also the law for over 60 years and was succesfully argued in court. I guess that means that Brown v. Board of Education was wrong? LOL

What possible connection could you see between those two situations, other than "both were Supreme Court decisions"?

[Scott Free]

Unless they buy imports.

There's no reason to assume that immigrants buy more imported goods than the rest of us. That being the case, more people still equals more jobs.

[timcsaw]

There's no reason to assume that immigrants buy more imported goods than the rest of us. That being the case, more people still equals more jobs.

And / or more competition for the relatively few, current jobs that exist. And / or more people on our already over-burdened entitlement programs.

[Scott Free]

And / or more competition for the relatively few, current jobs that exist. And / or more people on our already over-burdened entitlement programs.

I was addressing the scenario introduced by previous posters in which entitlements no longer existed. In such a scenario, anyone entering this country would need to become a productive member of society. They would also necessarily be consumers. More people = more consumers = more jobs.

[timcsaw]

I was addressing the scenario introduced by previous posters in which entitlements no longer existed. In such a scenario, anyone entering this country would need to become a productive member of society. They would also necessarily be consumers. More people = more consumers = more jobs.

Ah, misunderstanding on MY part... my apologies.

[Triton]

Those are unrelated issues.

No they aren't. Right now, any illegal that crosses the border and has a child has the ability to get government entitlement dollars for that child. That was NOT the case in the halcyon days of unfettered immigration for which you pine. Entitlements have made unfettered immigration impossible. If you want one you have to get rid of the other it is as simple as that. Which one do you want?

[bulgron]

No they aren't. Right now, any illegal that crosses the border and has a child has the ability to get government entitlement dollars for that child. That was NOT the case in the halcyon days of unfettered immigration for which you pine. Entitlements have made unfettered immigration impossible. If you want one you have to get rid of the other it is as simple as that. Which one do you want?

Neither.

Unfettered immigration was necessary back in the days when we had an entire continent to populate. Mission accomplished. Time to close the door and be content with the population that we've got.