Are the Iranians hell bent on the destruction of Israel?

[Codger_64]

Would an Islamic fanatic be crazy enough to strap on a bomb vest and blow himself and others to kingdom come?

More appropriately, would an Islamic fanatic convince someone else to strap on a bomb and blow themselves and others to kingdom come?

[timcsaw]

More appropriately, would an Islamic fanatic convince someone else to strap on a bomb and blow themselves and others to kingdom come?

Good point. 6 to one... One Islamic fanatic convinces another Islamic fanatic etc...

[Triton]

Seriously, would the leaders in Iran be crazy enough to use a nuke on Israel? They have to know that Israel has had nukes since 1967 and know how to use them.
IMHO, it's bluster and bluff. If not, it could be Teheran that would be wiped off the map.

You are applying the MAD principle. This need not apply to Iran. Those crazies WANT the end of the world the 12th iman and all that assorted insanity.

[ttoney83]

If Iran attacks Israel I support us defending Israel.

I wonder; Who is a Jew? These Jews don't appear to support the Zionist state of Israel.....I wonder why?

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

[Triton]

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said on Monday Israel has no roots in the Middle East and would be "eliminated," ignoring a U.N. warning to avoid incendiary rhetoric ahead of the annual General Assembly session.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8KO5BL20120924

Obviously he was just talking about getting rid of the state of Israel, all those Jews are just fine and will be allowed to stay.... or he's just kidding... or something...

[ttoney83]

Looks like Iwannajihad is attempting to goad Bibi into launching an attack. And Bibi is just the sort of dummy to do it. Iran will gain MAJOR sympathy points on the international stage by playing victim if Bibi is stupid enough to fall for this trick.

Iwannajihad knows that Israel can not take out all of its nuclear facilities. This is confirmed by Meir Dagan, the previous Chief of the Mossad in his interview on 60Minutes in March of this year. The only way this could be assured is if Israel has nukes, and uses them to strike these targets.....Apparently.....

[timcsaw]

Has anyone but me considered the misinformation game that may be in play here?

[ttoney83]

Has anyone but me considered the misinformation game that may be in play here?

Yes. Unfortunately, all one has to go on (i.e. US, in this forum), even if one is getting the intel and giving the intel, is what you see and what you don't see. It could even be that Israel is trying to divine from Iran if Israel actually know the number of nuke facilities Iran has.

It is possible that Ahmadinijad's comments above are a sort of arrogant slip up, indicating that the number of facilities Israel has admitted knowing about is not accurate.

Some times you let something out which appears to be an admission, but is intended to illicit some response. Intelligence is then gathered based on the response. Of course, there is also still the possibility that Iran is bluffing, acting strong to cover the fact that ALL their facilities have been discovered.....

[parbajtor]

Before Nelson Mandela became prime minister, was there much distinction between the "Apartheid regime of South Africa" and "South Africa"?
This isn't helped by the fact that some countries in the world recognise the state of Palestine and others don't and vice versa with Israel which has been superimposed
over the map of Palestine. Before Britain announced to the UN that they no longer wanted to be responsible for administering Palestine, there was no state of Israel.
That suddenly came into being before the following UN meeting as a done deal.
There is currently a two state solution of the Palestinians. The Gaza Strip and the West Bank are currently Palestine, everything else that used to be Palestine is
currently Israel. This problem is not alleviated by the fact that every Jew who turns up at the border is automatically granted Israeli citizenship as part of their
constitution. They have to be housed somewhere and the obvious solution is to "demilitarise" what's left of the Palestinian state and build housing on it.
Very few remaining countries have an "open door" policy regarding immigration because of the pressures this puts on infrastructure, look at the "problems" we have in the
UK on this issue and that's without the distraction of "war/terrorism/freedom fighter" as a mantle.
Let's not forget that the Lehi and a fair few members of Haganah were labelled as terrorists by both Britain and the UN (after the assassination of UN Mediator Bernadotte) and that Yitzhak Shamir was a former member of the Lehi.
I wonder if 50 years from now, there'll be such a thing as the Al Quaeda medal or the Hezbollah Ribbon?
Even following the surprising census result of August 2012 showing only 8,756 jews living in Iran, Jews are protected in the Iranian constitution and seat is reserved for a Jew in the Majlis.
Iran hosts the largest Jewish population of any Muslim-majority country. After Israel, it is home to the second-largest Jewish population in the Middle East.
It's also difficult to distinguish between Zion and Israel when the term "Zionism" coined by Austrian Nathan Birnbaum, was derived from the German rendering of Tzion in his journal Selbstemanzipation (Self Emancipation) in 1890. Zionism as a political movement started in 1897 and supported a 'national home', and later a state, for the Jewish people in Palestine. The Zionist movement declared the re-establishment of its State of Israel in 1948, following the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine. Since then and with varying ideologies, Zionists have focused on developing and protecting this state.
While Zionism is based in part upon Torah mitzvot linking the Jewish people to the Biblical land of Israel, the modern movement is largely secular. Indeed, until 1967 the Tzion of the Tanakh (the Old City of Jerusalem) was not even within the boundaries of Israel (although Mount Zion itself, was).
There's also a distinction to be made between "the Iranians" and the current regime controlling that part of the world formerly known as Persia. If we are going to make distinctions between Israel, Zion and Judaism don't you think we should also make similar distinctions for the other protagonists in this narrative?
Before this issue can be resolved, there needs to be recognition of all stakeholders and a removal of the population pressures driving this conflict.
Politics and religion are merely distractions/justification for the conflict (which has at its heart, territorial and economic drivers) and give the lie to the phrase "it's too complicated"
We are all "Sons of Abraham"

[timcsaw]

Yes. Unfortunately, all one has to go on (i.e. US, in this forum), even if one is getting the intel and giving the intel, is what you see and what you don't see. It could even be that Israel is trying to divine from Iran if Israel actually know the number of nuke facilities Iran has.

It is possible that Ahmadinijad's comments above are a sort of arrogant slip up, indicating that the number of facilities Israel has admitted knowing about is not accurate.

Some times you let something out which appears to be an admission, but is intended to illicit some response. Intelligence is then gathered based on the response. Of course, there is also still the possibility that Iran is bluffing, acting strong to cover the fact that ALL their facilities have been discovered.....

Equally, all of this "tension" between Israel and the US, with Israel agent's saying "we can't do it", and the US's "you'd better NOT do it" etc. all makes for interesting possibilities. What Israel really can and can't do can be estimated, but is only known to Israel.

[parbajtor]

You are applying the MAD principle. This need not apply to Iran. Those crazies WANT the end of the world the 12th iman and all that assorted insanity.

Plenty in the US Bible belt looking forward to the "Rapture" as well, I can't see that much difference if you want to chuck the "crazy" stereotype about.

[Steven65]

I wonder; Who is a Jew? These Jews don't appear to support the Zionist state of Israel.....I wonder why?
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

They are a Ultra Orthodox group who believe that the Jewish Homeland can only be brought about by divine intervention and the coming of the Messiah. Not by secular creation.
They have been around since the formation of the State of Israel in '48 and they have no political loyalty at all about Israel as a State. They are essentially religious zealots who believe solely in the teachings of the Torah and Tulmud.

Looks like Iwannajihad is attempting to goad Bibi into launching an attack. And Bibi is just the sort of dummy to do it. Iran will gain MAJOR sympathy points on the international stage by playing victim if Bibi is stupid enough to fall for this trick.

You obviously have no idea how decisions of this nature are taken in Israel, one of THE MOST democratic parliamentary countries in the world. If you did you would not be posting this drivel.

Yes. Unfortunately, all one has to go on (i.e. US, in this forum), even if one is getting the intel and giving the intel, is what you see and what you don't see. It could even be that Israel is trying to divine from Iran if Israel actually know the number of nuke facilities Iran has.

I would debate you on this point but I have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Perhaps we should all take a clue from this and realize that if you cannot post coherent sentences, that your opinions are essentially worthless.

[Monofletch]

I trained with Israeli ARMOR- The soldiers are no joke. Their equipment is incredible- They train very hard! Woman and men on their tanks. The Merkava Mark IV main battle tank will rival the Abrams A2 and the Leopard A4. You piss them off and they will walk right over you!

They play by a different set of rules.

[timcsaw]

Plenty in the US Bible belt looking forward to the "Rapture" as well, I can't see that much difference if you want to chuck the "crazy" stereotype about.

"Looking forward to God bringing the rapture (in His time (big "H"))", and "man trying to bring it about" in his (little "h") own time are two VERY different things.

[timcsaw]

On the OP; I listened to Obama's UN speech and overall, I was encouraged by what he said. A bit soft with this;

“Let me be clear: America wants to resolve this issue through diplomacy, and we believe that there is still time and space to do so,” he said. “But that time is not unlimited.”

But overall, he did a pretty good job. If I trusted that he has much of a spine, I'd be even more encouraged.

[Steven65]

Before Nelson Mandela became prime minister, was there much distinction between the "Apartheid regime of South Africa" and "South Africa"? Mandela became President not PM.
This isn't helped by the fact that some countries in the world recognise the state of Palestine and others don't and vice versa with Israel which has been superimposed
over the map of Palestine. Before Britain announced to the UN that they no longer wanted to be responsible for administering Palestine, there was no state of Israel.
That suddenly came into being before the following UN meeting as a done deal.
There is currently a two state solution of the Palestinians. The Gaza Strip and the West Bank are currently Palestine, everything else that used to be Palestine is
currently Israel. This problem is not alleviated by the fact that every Jew who turns up at the border is automatically granted Israeli citizenship as part of their
constitution. They have to be housed somewhere and the obvious solution is to "demilitarise" what's left of the Palestinian state and build housing on it.
Very few remaining countries have an "open door" policy regarding immigration because of the pressures this puts on infrastructure, look at the "problems" we have in the
UK on this issue and that's without the distraction of "war/terrorism/freedom fighter" as a mantle. The right of return was essentially set up to allow Jews from all over the world to return to their spiritual homeland. It was created this way so that the tens of thouands of displaced Jews who survived the camps and ghetto's of WW2 had a place to go and call home. Britain also had something similar with colonials given full British citizenship and right to live and work in the UK on their return.
Let's not forget that the Lehi and a fair few members of Haganah were labelled as terrorists by both Britain and the UN (after the assassination of UN Mediator Bernadotte) and that Yitzhak Shamir was a former member of the Lehi. It did not stop Britain from practically disarming the Israelis before independence in the hope that the Arabs would wipe them out. Guess which side Britain was on?
I wonder if 50 years from now, there'll be such a thing as the Al Quaeda medal or the Hezbollah Ribbon? Why? Is there a SS or Gestapo medal in Germany? Or maybe a Pol Pot medal in Cambodia?
Even following the surprising census result of August 2012 showing only 8,756 jews living in Iran, Jews are protected in the Iranian constitution and seat is reserved for a Jew in the Majlis.That is hardly a figure of distinction. There are more Jews living in a 10km radius of me than that.
Iran hosts the largest Jewish population of any Muslim-majority country. After Israel, it is home to the second-largest Jewish population in the Middle East.
It's also difficult to distinguish between Zion and Israel when the term "Zionism" coined by Austrian Nathan Birnbaum, was derived from the German rendering of Tzion in his journal Selbstemanzipation (Self Emancipation) in 1890. Zionism as a political movement started in 1897 and supported a 'national home', and later a state, for the Jewish people in Palestine. The Zionist movement declared the re-establishment of its State of Israel in 1948, following the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine. Since then and with varying ideologies, Zionists have focused on developing and protecting this state.
While Zionism is based in part upon Torah mitzvot linking the Jewish people to the Biblical land of Israel, the modern movement is largely secular. Indeed, until 1967 the Tzion of the Tanakh (the Old City of Jerusalem) was not even within the boundaries of Israel (although Mount Zion itself, was). Please remember that if Jordan, Iraq, Syria and Egypt had not attacked Israel in '67, the Jordanians would still have East Jerusalem. They lost it in battle paid for in blood by the IDF.
There's also a distinction to be made between "the Iranians" and the current regime controlling that part of the world formerly known as Persia. If we are going to make distinctions between Israel, Zion and Judaism don't you think we should also make similar distinctions for the other protagonists in this narrative?
Before this issue can be resolved, there needs to be recognition of all stakeholders and a removal of the population pressures driving this conflict.
Politics and religion are merely distractions/justification for the conflict (which has at its heart, territorial and economic drivers) and give the lie to the phrase "it's too complicated" Actually it's very simple......They want Jerusalem so they can close it to all but Muslims, they want the removal of all Jews from Israel and the destruction of the ONLY DEMOCRACY in the region. Not complicated at all
We are all "Sons of Abraham"

................

[Triton]

Plenty in the US Bible belt looking forward to the "Rapture" as well, I can't see that much difference if you want to chuck the "crazy" stereotype about.

The difference of course being that their religion doesn't provide any way for them to help the "rapture" along nor so far as I can tell are there any sizeable percentage of Christians that are trying to do so.

[Triton]

Before this issue can be resolved, there needs to be recognition of all stakeholders and a removal of the population pressures driving this conflict.

What is to be "resolved?"

[UffDa]

Let's say Iran builds a nuke and decides to use it on Israel. What would be their target? Jerusalem? Never! Tel Aviv would be the most likely target.

MAD was mentioned. I don't think that it would apply here. How many nukes could Iran build? How many does Israel have? If Iran were to nuke
a city in Israel, would Israel respond with just one or would they wipe out every major city and military installation in the country?

As I said before, I think all the threats from Iran is bluff and bluster just as it is from No. Korea. We'll have to wait and see.

[ttoney83]

They are a Ultra Orthodox group who believe that the Jewish Homeland can only be brought about by divine intervention and the coming of the Messiah. Not by secular creation.
They have been around since the formation of the State of Israel in '48 and they have no political loyalty at all about Israel as a State. They are essentially religious zealots who believe solely in the teachings of the Torah and Tulmud.

Zealots, sorta like Netanyahu and his party are for Zionism?

You obviously have no idea how decisions of this nature are taken in Israel, one of THE MOST democratic parliamentary countries in the world. If you did you would not be posting this drivel.

FIRST, you need to work on reading comprehension. Second, your statment implies that I don't know what kind of government Israel has. Stupid assumption.

Stating that Bibi is just the sort of dummy to fall for this sort of goading, IF it is goading, only means, in the context of a "democracy" that he is the sort who will PUSH harder for war......There is such a thing as reading too much into things, just as there is not being able to read between the lines....
But if you THINK you know better, let's hear it.

I would debate you on this point but I have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Perhaps we should all take a clue from this and realize that if you cannot post coherent sentences, that your opinions are essentially worthless.

Don't worry bout it buddy, you'd have to do some extensive study and be in touch with one or two former intelligence people, AND have up to date information (NOT from the MSPM).....Study up bud, I look foreward to debating you on reality as soon as you are up to speed.

But to help you out with this parTICular statement, it simply means that we here in this forum are naturally limited in our assessments because the vast majority of us don't have access to good, up to date information (intelligence). MOST here rely on the Main Stream Propaganda Machine, and hence are MOST limited in their ability to determine the reality of a given situation.

However, EVEN IF we were the ones actually gathering the intelligence in the field, assessing it in the "office,' or disseminating it to other sources, the assessments can only be made in relation to one's knowlege of various factors and variables related TO that intelligence, some of which would include the individuals involved, the Culture, economy etc; hence, even the Chief of the Mossad can only give a 'best guess" assessment of any given set of intelligence data. But his is likely the BEST guess.

Understand now?