Grinders - Burr King/Hard Core vs. Wilton/Bader/KMG

[C L Wilkins]

So what's the difference?

A lot of the folks that have been doing this a while may know, this is just an observation of what the differences are. I have had the opportunity to use each one discussed at one time or the other.

The Wilton is the Model 1911 Colt when it comes to grinders. It is the same basic 3 wheel design that the Bader and KMG are except it doesn't have a quick change tool arm.

The Wilton is the noisiest of the three and not quite as smooth as the Bader or KMG. The KMG is the stoutest made of the three.

- Belt speed

On all three of these grinders, the motor is the drive wheel. Regardless if grinding with a flat platen or a contact wheel, the maximum belt speeds are the same. Not so with the Burr King or Hard Core. The drive wheel is the contact wheel. A smaller contact wheel equates to a slower maximum belt speed. On the Hardcore, if the flat platen assy is installed, then a 5 inch drive wheel is utilized. The belt speed is drastically reduced.

-Smoothness and tracking

The Burr King and the Hard Core are very close cousins although not quite the same. Both of these are very, very smooth grinders. Tracking is very good on both and is unsurpassed. This is their biggest plus. Many folks have complained about tracking on the Wilton but a lot has been done by many knifemakers to correct this. The BIIIs that I have ground on were a bit smoother. The KMG I played with was very good as well and I could really lean into it.

Tool/Attachment change out.

The Bader and KMG are the best in class when it comes to this. the quick change beats the Hardcore I have hands down. I can't comment on a Burr King since I don't own one and the one I used I never changed an assembly.

On my Hardcore, to go from a 10 inch contact wheel to the flat platen assy, I have to unbolt the 10 inch wheel, slide on and tighten the flat platen assy with two allen screws. I have to bolt on the 5 inch drive wheel. I then also have to go from a 6 inch idler wheel to an 8 inch drive wheel. OK, so it takes about 5 minutes. Big deal? Yeah, big deal. So what if I want to now go to the small wheel attachment? Unbolt the 5 inch wheel, take off the flat platen assy, install the small attachment, then bolt on the 2 inch drive wheel. Yeah, another 5 minutes. Every man needs at least a couple of these machines.

On the Wilton, its not much better but a little.

Which one is the best? There is no such thing. It all depends on personal preference. My Hardcore is extremely smooth but attachment change out is a pain. The Bader or KMG are nowhere near as smooth but attachment change out is a breeze. They are definitely more versatile.

They all do the same thing, grind.

Craig

[ddavelarsen]

Craig I went through pretty much the same thought process when I bought my BIII. At the time, I didn't know about the KMG and it's come a long way in the few years I've been watching. That's what my next machine will be. You lined this out perfectly. I hope anyone considering what grinder to buy is paying attention.

Having never used a Burr King or Hard Core I can't comment on their smooth running but that's sure what I've always heard. Fact is, the BIII is pretty quiet too and I'm happy with it in that regard. In fact, I think it must be pretty equal to the KMG except in price, where Rob's machine wins hands down.

For what it's worth I'll never, ever, buy a grinder without variable speed. And when I do spring for the KMG it'll be VFD just because of all the good press that's gotten around here. And of course, a horizontal grinder is in the pipeline too... My biggest choice is going to be whether I buy Rob's horizontal machine or the KMG next. Well, that's after this week's welder and my eventual next purchase, a heat treat oven... (I should have enough coffee cans full of change in about 9 more months. If you're wondering, a 1 lb coffee can full of random silver coins is about $155.)

I sometimes wonder if I make stuff just to have the excuse to buy more tools! Heaven knows I've worked my way through several disciplines and accumulated quite a bit of machinery. One of these days I'm gonna get serious about casting too... Then I'll get rich selling odd jewelry in the Smithsonian magazine.

[Raymond Richard]

I got one of the very first batch of Hardcore's. I don't mind the little time it takes to change things over but I do wish it had a faster belt speed.

[adammichael]

Mr. Wilkins

Do you have the anodized aluminum or the cast aluminum version?
Could you post some pics? It would be intesting to see what changes the Hardcore has gone through in the last 5 years. How old is yours?

All your observations are right on as far as my experience goes. Thanks for taking the time to document this.

Michael

[Kit Carson]

Craig,
Anyone that has been to my shop, or seen the pictures can easily say that I should be able to give input to this thread. I have a Burr King, KMG, Beaumont Horizontal, and Wilton Square Wheel sitting side by side. All are DC with variable speed. You are accurate on your assessment.

I do almost all my hollow grinding on the Burr King with a 10" wheel. Smooth running, quiet, plenty of power but also use the KMG with a 14" wheel for hollow grinding. Normally the KMG is set up with the flat platen and tool rest for profiling. The Square Wheel is set up with the 1 1/2" wheel out usually. I rough in finger cutouts with it and smooth and square them up with the Horizontal grinder.

So, which one do I think is best? The one that you are satisfied with.

33 years ago I started out on a disk grinder made from a washing machine motor. Made alot of knives with it and was never satisfied. Tried several other "belt sanders" and wasn't satisfied with them either.

Decided one day that I was good enough to run with the big dogs, so I got off the porch, went to the Credit Union and borrowed enough for the Square Wheel. Made 6 knives and paid it off a month later. After a few more years I decided variable speed was the way to go. Made 10 knives and bought the DC conversion. Haven't looked back since. I just keep stepping up to the next level. I'm hard to satisfy.

[C L Wilkins]

Originally Posted by adammichael

Mr. Wilkins

Do you have the anodized aluminum or the cast aluminum version?
Could you post some pics? It would be intesting to see what changes the Hardcore has gone through in the last 5 years. How old is yours?

All your observations are right on as far as my experience goes. Thanks for taking the time to document this.

Michael

Michael,
I have the anodized aluminum model. When I bought mine all that was available was the 115v 1 1/2 variable speed model. I now see that 220V is available. The one I have is like the one pictured below.



I'll be getting an additional grinder this year sometime. I haven't decided what to get just yet.

Craig

[tom mayo]

I have two hardcores, one set up with a 10" wheel and the other with a slack belt set up.

They are great machines.................but as everyone has said, changing them around is pretty slow................

When I get rich and famous I am going to get another small wheel dedicated machine...........

I really like how smooth they run and how well they track.

Ken Onion bought one and he hated it.............sold it to some sucker at Kershaw!!!

Also have a 2 hp old bader.........single speed....grinds the heck out of everything but titanium.

I might just get a Burr King one of these days............they are very good versitle machines............Ken loves his and the guy who taught me to make knives was sold on it too.

Just got a JLB horizontal grinder but am not sold on it yet. Steve Ryan and Trace love theirs, talked me into getting one.......but for 23 years I have ground off a belt going down and its hard to get used to the sideways thing

[NickWheeler]

I would agree too.

I've used them all as well, and think you've made a fair assessment.

However, I got to grind on Mike Vagnino's KMG for a week last summer and I'm pretty sure it's as smooth as my Burr King.

I've got a variable speed Burr King with all the attachments and it is a fine machine. I bought it all brand new from Tru-Grit (great folks!). PLUS, there's a kick-ass Rob Frink rotary platen that gets slapped on it quite frequently

I've had it not for 9 years and it runs just as smooth as when I bought it.

I did hate the puke green color though, so I sanded it down and painted it with Silver Hammerite

If a guy were to pick just one, I would definitely say the KMG.

If you can afford to have a couple, then any of them would work nicely.

WITHOUT QUESTION one should get variable speed. Even if they CAN'T afford it!!!

Tool changeout with the Burr King and Hardcore SUCKS! In fact I often find myself stalling in moving on to the next step of a knife if I'm going to have to change the set-up. But other than that I love the machine.

Great thread Craig!!!
-Nick

http://www.wheelerknives.com

[Mike Hull]

I started with a Blademaster grinder back in the early 80's, and still use it(It was like the Coote of it's day, except it came with more options, and a motor)for small wheel grinding, as it's far better than any other small wheel setup i've ever seen, on a vertical grinder anyway.
My other two grinders are Burr King's. One set up for contact wheel grinding, the other with a vertical platen. The Burr King's are extremely smooth, and track great. All are variable speed!!

And of course two disc grinders.

[rlinger]

I'll throw my hat into the ring for absolutely recommending variable speed. This poor boy started with a 1 X 30, which screamed, and then graduated to a Coote. I have DC variable on the Coote and on my Rob Frink horizontal edge grinder.

I've been waiting for the sparks to fly from my open frame DC motor on the Coote and finally tonight it happened (after about a year and a half). I blew the motor out with the air compressor. Don't know how much longer the ol'open frame will last. I'll probably have to get a closed frame before long.

RL

[tom mayo]

Nick-the simple solution is to buy another one!!!!

[Gossman Knives]

I don't have experience with any of the other machines I only watched at a hammer-in as John Fitch operated a Bader. That man is a wizard doing a flat grind. I decided on the KMG after reading about it here. I'm glad I did. It's very easy to operate, smooth and I like the accessories available. The thing is built like a tank and tracks like a dream. Best money I've spent in a long time.
Scott

[A. Brett Schaller]

I have a Wilton Square Wheel that I've had about 15 years and a Hardcore (the billet model) that I've had about a year and a half. I use the Wilton for profiling and such -- attachment changeout is quick and easy-- but all my bevel grinding is now done on the Hardcore. It's super smoooooth and the tracking is micro-adjustable. I wouldn't trade it for anything.

[C L Wilkins]

I believe my next project before I get another grinder is to have a dedicated small wheel setup. I don't believe it will take that much effort.

As far as the grinder goes, I am leaning towards a KMG.

Craig

[jhiggins]

Excellent report, Craig! Thanks for this: Hopefully a lot of new folks will read and learn from it. That said, I have to throw my pitch for the BIII. STephen Bader has passed away, but the company is still avlive and well, and under new ownership. The BIII is still, in my honest opinion, the best value for a knfemaker. I'm saying this not because I dislike the others, but because in my experience, the BIII provides the best balance between quality, price and flexibility.

I'm not syaing the KMG is a bad machine, either. Rob Frink is the most proactive and friendly machine-maker, and he services us with a smile and that means a lot to me. However, the prices are very close these days, especially if you buy a BIII without a motor and add your own. I will be buying another BIII myself, and I was just quoted a BIII with a 14" wheel for $1100. In my opinion, there is nothing as rock solid and steady as the main casting that comprises the BIII, and that means a lot to me. Bottom line: If I wanted a bolt-together grinder, being a machinist myself, I would make one.

[Bob V.]

I have a KMG with a variable speed motor and I love it! Dont know much about the other grinders out there but this one works great for me and I love the fact that the thing is built like a tank! Switching belts and attachments is fast and easy!

[gBlade]

I'm new to this game but don't want to buy something cheap then have to up grade. I'm looking at the KMG Could you tell me which package set up would be the most versatile. I was thinking a 8" or 10" wheel but am open for suggestions. Burr King or Bader sound nice to. Anyone used the JL grinders?

Tom Mayo is there anyplace here in Hawaii that carries any machines worth looking at or do you know where I can maybe find a nice used machine locally.

I just bought the big Jet buffer from Woodcrafter is there anything that would attach to that?

Fish

[Mike Hull]

Originally Posted by gBlade

I'm new to this game but don't want to buy something cheap then have to up grade. I'm looking at the KMG Could you tell me which package set up would be the most versatile. I was thinking a 8" or 10" wheel but am open for suggestions. Burr King or Bader sound nice to. Anyone used the JL grinders?

Burr King is a great grinder, smooth, tracks well, etc., but a real pain to change tooling on, that's why I have two of them. One for contact wheel grinding, and the other setup with the vertical platen for flat grinding. I have a third grinder I use for a small wheel stuff only(Blademaster).

I've got no experience with the JL's, but Trace Rinaldi does and speaks quite highly of them.

[rjudoka]

I'm gonna throw my 2 cents in for the kmg. I'm sure the others are great machines. What made me go with Rob is customer service. As others have noted his machines have many accessories and are built like tanks. What people are forgetting is you can call Rob on the phone with questions, problems, design changes and talk to the man that makes the machine. Call Bader up and say you like the b3 but you have a couple ideas that you want them to change, you'll send them your sketches and measurements! In todays impersonal world anytime I can deal with the manufacturer one on one, thats where my money will go.
Rick

[Mike Hull]

Originally Posted by rjudoka

I'm gonna throw my 2 cents in for the kmg. I'm sure the others are great machines. What made me go with Rob is customer service. As others have noted his machines have many accessories and are built like tanks. What people are forgetting is you can call Rob on the phone with questions, problems, design changes and talk to the man that makes the machine. Call Bader up and say you like the b3 but you have a couple ideas that you want them to change, you'll send them your sketches and measurements! In todays impersonal world anytime I can deal with the manufacturer one on one, thats where my money will go.
Rick

I agree completely. I've had my other grinders for years, way before Rob opened shop, and I like them. But, if I had to replace them, I wouldn't think twice about getting a KMG, or two.