M-21 lock failure

[st77022]

Well this is my first post and i'll keep it brief. I have been lurking around for quite some time but never had anything to post. Over the weekend while riding the local bike trails, I came across a root in the trail that seemed to be hazard. only about 3/4" in diameter, i decided to cut it with my crkt m-21. I failed to use the secondary locking mechanism, since i have never had a knife with one and also never had a lock failure. I whacked the root good, and as it went through, the lock failed and the blade closed on my hand. As momentum carried it through the stroke, the blade snapped back open and locked. Off to the hospital for 6 stitches and a partially severed extensor tendon. Worst part is I am a LEO and the injury was my right index finger. Looks like i'll be off for a little while. Anyone else experience a similar failure with this particular knife. This knife was a recent purchase, having carried a cqc-6 and several cqc-7's for years. I still like the knife, but my confidence is somewhat shaken now.

[Planterz]

I've had a CRKT linerlock (Red Dog) fail and bite me too. 3 stitches and permanent nerve damage.

IMO, the liners on these knives are way too thin, and I'd never trust a knife that requires a secondary lock to be safe.

Hope you heal fast.

[Chris "Anagarika"]

I have a CRKT Point Guard. Without LAWKS engaged, it still pass spine whack .. and i did whack quite hard, as hard as my grip allowed me (holding it such so if it fails, it didn't bite) ..

[Ascoe]

I was never able to like any CRKT offering, especially their linerlocks. You should look at a Benchmade 806 or something else that will stand up to heavier use.

Shame to hear you won't be on the job for awhile.

[KeithAM]

Thanks for posting and welcome to the forum.

I think stories like yours and Planterz are very important in helping people decide what locks to trust, which is a major issue in knifedom.

Too bad about your finger.

[nelsonmc]

Wow sorry you guys got bit so bad, damn that really sucks. I was thinking about getting one but forget that, I cut myself enough w/o a lock failing. I was always wondering why 2 locks... what a POS!

[ErikD]

I bought a CRKT Ryan Model 8 folder when they came out because I really liked the design, and couldn't afford the real deal. With both locks engaged the knife was as secure as can be expected of a folder. With only the liner lock engaged the knife would fold up rather easily.

I think it is a real shame because they team up with some great makers and offer some really nicely designed knives at good prices. I also find it to be a poor design execution if the knife requires two locks to be safe. If you check any of the custom versions you get a solid knife using only the liner lock. I think that it really has more to do the the geometry and accuracy with which the locking mechanism is made than the actual thickness of the liners that is key.

[fudo]

I like alot of the CKRT designs, but I never bought one because, after fooling around with them, I came to the conclusion that they are unsafe due to badly designed locking mechanisms.

[nelsonmc]

Ah well, pretty soon people will bitch about CRKT as much as Cold Steel, they're both on my "do not buy" aka "i take a poop on you" list now.

[silenthunterstudios]

I am only keeping my CRKT M21 (the big dog version), my old CRKT M16-13 sans flipper, my new CRKT M16-13 coming soon with a flipper, my CRKT Ryan Model 7 Black that is coming soon, and I might keep my CRKT EDC M16, although that is debatable, I'm still not sure on my Bwana, I really like my Pikes Peak design, but hate the liner lock on it. I personally think that Cold Steel is better than they are, but quality wise, I think that these folders are just meant for small tasks. They are not meant for the kind of abuse you put a Sebenza or Strider through (presumably, I've never owned a Sebenza or Strider).

[zinn1348]

First off, I'm not much of a CRKT fan, the only ones that have interested me were the two Apaches in ats34. The framelock in ti and ats was another good one.


That being said, I really don't understand why anyone would use one of their designs that is equipped with the LAWKS or however it is spelled, and NOT use the secondary locking device each time the blade is opened.

The fact that it is incorporated into the design leads me to believe that the liner mech failure is a known factor, making use of the liner lock block a necessity.

I am not laying blame on anyone, and hope no one takes offense.

I have an older model Lonewolf Harsey with that feature, and really like it, although I trust the thicker liner lock that it has. I use the secondary each time just in case.


Regards,

Thomas Zinn

[Dijos]

I have an old doolittle that once the lock started to go, it became really squirelly. I don't buy liners period.

[nelsonmc]

Originally Posted by zinn1348

(...) The fact that it is incorporated into the design leads me to believe that the liner mech failure is a known factor, making use of the liner lock block a necessity.

If you are right and this is a known factor, they know the liner lock is weak, they should not be selling the damned things period. 2 people and probably a few more if not a lot more have had serious injuries, that's not right. I don't think they knew the liner was weak or defective or whatever it is, because I think they would have chose to fix that problem instead of developing a second lock "LAWKS" to toss on it.

[zinn1348]

Originally Posted by nelsonmc

If you are right and this is a known factor, they know the liner lock is weak, they should not be selling the damned things period. 2 people and probably a few more if not a lot more have had serious injuries, that's not right. I don't think they knew the liner was weak or defective or whatever it is, because I think they would have chose to fix that problem instead of developing a second lock "LAWKS" to toss on it.

Can't disagree with you there, as I said, I'm not much of a fan. My only point is that IMHO a degree of responsibility should rest with the owner to use whatever safety devices that are designed into the product.....whether it is the parking brake on a car, or the safety on a firearm. Of course, lawyers, judges and litigous society would not see it that way, too much common sense would be expected by consumer.

I suspect these knives incorporated the secondary lock as an add-on (an afterthought) although you would never get the manufacturer to admit it.

The CRKT fans will undoubtedly cry foul an any attack of their sacred cow if any comments concerning quality of materials, research and development, and flawed design features are discussed very much, so I'll just say this is in my opinion only, YMMV.


Regards,

Thomas

[nelsonmc]

Originally Posted by zinn1348

Can't disagree with you there, as I said, I'm not much of a fan. My only point is that IMHO a degree of responsibility should rest with the owner to use whatever safety devices that are designed into the product.....whether it is the parking brake on a car, or the safety on a firearm. Of course, lawyers, judges and litigous society would not see it that way, too much common sense would be expected by consumer.

I suspect these knives incorporated the secondary lock as an add-on (an afterthought) although you would never get the manufacturer to admit it.

The CRKT fans will undoubtedly cry foul an any attack of their sacred cow if any comments concerning quality of materials, research and development, and flawed design features are discussed very much, so I'll just say this is in my opinion only, YMMV.


Regards,

Thomas

If this was a car, and the brakes failed on oh lets say 30% of them, I would suspect major recalls and repairs. I don't think they would just say "Oh yes, we know of this problem, that's what the emergency brake is for... It's your responsibility to engage 'both' brakes...". Oh well, either way I agree with you, if it's there use it, it's not a car, it's a knife. Still won't see me buying one.

[GarageBoy]

Are you sure you didn't torque the knife when you whacked it? You weren't applying force on the spine as in the spine whack test

[fedaykincmndr]

I've had my M16-O2Z for years and whacked the sh*t out of it with no failures. I'm a CRKT fan and always have been...don't have any EXP with the M-21 though. Sorry to hear about your finger, I really hope you heal quickly; not to be condescending but gettin' bit is one of the joys of owning knives. I got bit by my Camillus Boyscout knife when I was a kid and still have the scar. Never got bit as bad as you did though; YOUCH! Anyway...

WELCOME TO BF!!

[st77022]

Originally Posted by GarageBoy

Are you sure you didn't torque the knife when you whacked it? You weren't applying force on the spine as in the spine whack test

I am not exactly sure how it happened. I believe it was a dead on strike, but anything is possible. I actually have never used the LAWKS. just seemed like a feel good kinda add on to make it seem safer. I will probably continue to use the knife, just not as hard and with less confidence. I take full responsibility for my actions, I used it, I got bit. It happens. I still dont understand how the lock failed, since all the force was against the edge. My only guess is that the impact jarred the liner aside and as the tension was relieved from the blade as it severed the root, the blade snapped shut. I guess i will never know. I attempted to lock the blade without the LAWKS since then and gave the spine several good hits, with no failure. I am not the kind to litigate or ask for compensation, god knows there is to much of that. I do plan on sending CRKT a nastygram to express my displeasure with the knife. How about some recomendations for a comparably sized knife top replace it. I dont mind spending a little money, but keep it reasonable.

[zinn1348]

Originally Posted by nelsonmc

If this was a car, and the brakes failed on oh lets say 30% of them, I would suspect major recalls and repairs. I don't think they would just say "Oh yes, we know of this problem, that's what the emergency brake is for... It's your responsibility to engage 'both' brakes...". Oh well, either way I agree with you, if it's there use it, it's not a car, it's a knife. Still won't see me buying one.

Can't say that I blame you.


Thomas

[zinn1348]

Originally Posted by st77022

I am not exactly sure how it happened. I believe it was a dead on strike, but anything is possible. I actually have never used the LAWKS. just seemed like a feel good kinda add on to make it seem safer. I will probably continue to use the knife, just not as hard and with less confidence. I take full responsibility for my actions, I used it, I got bit. It happens. I still dont understand how the lock failed, since all the force was against the edge. My only guess is that the impact jarred the liner aside and as the tension was relieved from the blade as it severed the root, the blade snapped shut. I guess i will never know. I attempted to lock the blade without the LAWKS since then and gave the spine several good hits, with no failure. I am not the kind to litigate or ask for compensation, god knows there is to much of that. I do plan on sending CRKT a nastygram to express my displeasure with the knife. How about some recomendations for a comparably sized knife top replace it. I dont mind spending a little money, but keep it reasonable.

Oh, I'd be sure to let CRKT know about it, complete with photos. Wouldn't hurt to rattle their cage a little(unless they're immune, and don't care)


Thomas