K98 Mauser Bayonet

[Terry Newton]

I have really liked this bayonet for some time, and was thinking of getting one in the near future.

Can anyone tell me what type of steel these knives were made of? Would they be useable after you put an edge on one?

What is the price range for a user that is not in bad shape, and also the price range for one that is in nicer shape in which all the numbers might match?

Are there many different variations of this knife?

Thanks or all your help.

[not2sharp]

Some examples of the 98-05

Read more here (about 4 entries down)
http://home.bellsouth.net/p/s/commun...upID=77561&ck=

n2s

[Ryan8]

Originally Posted by Terry Newton

I have really liked this bayonet for some time, and was thinking of getting one in the near future.

Can anyone tell me what type of steel these knives were made of? Would they be usable after you put an edge on one?

Cool. Welcome to the world of bayonets.

I'm not sure what kind of steel they're made out of, but I'm pretty sure it isn't stainless. The World War II-era issues are usually heavily blued.

I wouldn't recommend sharpening and using one. You'll instantly remove a large amount of collector value. They're World War II collector's items after all. There are plenty of other good, modern knives out there that were designed for "actual use".

Originally Posted by Terry Newton

What is the price range for a user that is not in bad shape, and also the price range for one that is in nicer shape in which all the numbers might match?

$60-90 is what my book says for a generic S 84/98 but I've seen them sell for more - even fairly common manufacturers. Matching marks aren't that hard to find but are strongly desired by collectors.

Originally Posted by Terry Newton

Are there many different variations of this knife?

YES. Many variations, from Imperial bayonets to Weimar Republic to Nazi-era bayonets. A number of variations, plus some were modified and re-issued.

From the 1940s alone you'll find a significant number of manufacturers, plus things like wood/composition/Bakelite grips plus the use of rivets plus commercial bayonets plus phosphate finishes plus commercial/police/dress/fire fighter bayonets. Dress bayonets come in a huge number of variations. Then there are bayonet knots.

Good luck. I recommend picking up a book like "Seitengewehr: History of the German Bayonet".

[Way-O]

I think the prices start from about 40 usd and go up to a couple of hundreds.

Some examples for sale at Bayonetsonline.com

The K98k Bayonet Collector's Network or
The K98k Bayonet Collector's Network, maybe you'll find some info here or perhaps a way to contact an expert (or a dozen)

Bayonet Collector's Web Ring, list of sites

I have also seen Yugoslavian variants sold pretty cheap, about $20. Not exactly the same thing, but maybe something to look into.

I'd like to hear some first hand experiences of using bayonets as a tool. And if there are bayonets that have hard enough edges to be useful as general cutting or hacking tools.

[Terry Newton]

I now believe the style I like is the 84/98, with no ring, and no teeth. It is the common model being sold with the Mauser surplus rifles.

It is also the model being used on the game Battlefield 1942.

It is a very nice, slick design.

[Terry Newton]

Many appear to have never been sharpened. Was this generally the case, with the knife being primarily issued for use as a bayonet, with no thought whatsoever given to the utility of these knives?

Thanks to everyone for the quick responses, great pic, and great links.

I am going to keep digging. If I can find a rough beater for the right price I intend to use the knife in order to get a better feel for history. Don't worry, it will definitely be a beater, and not something nice and matching.

Were the metal sheaths with the clips common? Were those sheaths also numbered to match the knives?

Thanks again for all your help.

T

[Ookpik]

I’m guessing that a bayonet would make a poor knife. I think the steel would be too soft to hold an edge for long. A bayonet shouldn’t be brittle. It should bend instead of breaking under hard use. I don’t know for sure, but maybe someone else does.

[Ryan8]

Originally Posted by Terry Newton

Many appear to have never been sharpened. Was this generally the case, with the knife being primarily issued for use as a bayonet, with no thought whatsoever given to the utility of these knives?

It seems like they weren't often used as cutting tools for whatever reason. However they were often used as hammers for driving pegs. I have several K98 bayonets with dents in the flashguards that would attest to this. They were probably often used for things like prying, cooking, digging, opening cans, etc.

Originally Posted by Terry Newton

Were the metal sheaths with the clips common? Were those sheaths also numbered to match the knives?

You mean the frog studs? Yes, every scabbard I've seen has them. They hold the scabbard in the leather frog.

Yes, the scabbards also had the same maker code and serial number originally. They were re-issued and mixed up over time however. So matching bayonets/scabbards sell for more money.

[Terry Newton]

Actually, I have seen numerous pics of German Airborne carrying this knife in a metal sheath has does not have the frog peg on the sheath.

These sheaths had an actual clip that could be used to clip the knife into the coat, onto gear, etc.

The flash gaurd is the metal covering the pommel?

T

[Ryan8]

Originally Posted by Terry Newton

Actually, I have seen numerous pics of German Airborne carrying this knife in a metal sheath has does not have the frog peg on the sheath.

These sheaths had an actual clip that could be used to clip the knife into the coat, onto gear, etc.

Those could be paratrooper knives or maybe trench daggers. Basically with the bayonets the scabbard fit into the leather frog which fit onto the belt. You can see a picture of a bayonet, frog, scabbard and knot on this page.

Paratrooper knives were gravity knives that had their own dedicated pockets on the pants and they were also attached to the uniform via a lanyard. They were designed to cut off a parachute.

It could be something else I'm not thinking of. Out of curiosity, do you have any images available?

Originally Posted by Terry Newton

The flash guard is the metal covering the pommel?

Flash guards were strips of metal on the back (spine-side) of the grips. A lesson on bayonet anatomy is available here.

With the Gew. 98 and the respective bayonet, the rifle's muzzle was right above the grips. During World War I the Germans noticed that firing the rifle with the bayonet attached would burn the bayonet's grips. And so the flash guard was added.

[Terry Newton]

I finally remembered where I saw the pic of the paratrooper with the knife. It is found in the book titled Tactical Knives, and was written by Dietmar Pohl.

I have not had a chance to read this, but would recommend someone buying it based on the pics alone.

The pic I am referring to is on page 19, and very clearly shows the troop wearing the knife clipped to his jacket, being worn just below the neck line, with the handle oriented to his right.

Also, after reading it again, I have found the knife is not the 84/98 bayonet I was inquiring about, but rather a, I believe, Luftwaffenmesser style knife in the metal sheath with clip.

Also shown in another pic found on page 16 is an excellent picture of the Infanteriemesser 42 style, the Luftwaffenmesser style mentioned above, and a PumaNahkampfmesser.

These are very nice knives.

I would post the pics, but I am worried about the copyright situation. I would not want to show the author any disrespect for his work. Again, it is a very nicely laid out book dealing with the tactical knives used throughout the last century or so.

I intend to do some more digging. Thanks.

[Terry Newton]

http://www.aurorahistoryboutique.com/C000255.htm

The style knife found in the pic of the paratrooper is found in the above link.

Thanks to everyone.

[Ryan8]

Originally Posted by Terry Newton

http://www.aurorahistoryboutique.com/C000255.htm

The style knife found in the pic of the paratrooper is found in the above link.

For the most part, I actually thought these were fantasy items. But I suppose they would be real if you've seen older photos with these knives. Beware of the reproductions like the ones on that site if you want a real one. I'm sure the real items sell for quite a bit, more than the bayonets discussed.

[Ilovetoolsteel]

Originally Posted by Terry Newton

I have really liked this bayonet for some time, and was thinking of getting one in the near future.

Can anyone tell me what type of steel these knives were made of? Would they be useable after you put an edge on one?

What is the price range for a user that is not in bad shape, and also the price range for one that is in nicer shape in which all the numbers might match?

Are there many different variations of this knife?

Thanks or all your help.

They are made of a pretty good carbon steel unfortunately they are hardened to a spring temper. Probably a good 10 rockwell points below the minimum of where you would harden a knife. You can sharpen them but they won't stand up to serious cutting.They will dull pretty fast. However how much serious cutting do you expect to do with a long slender spear pointed knife blade? You can sharpen these blades with a mill file.

The relative "softness" of the steel makes them great throwing knives.

If you are concerned about destroying a piece of history, worry not, they were made in the millions. You will find the Czech bayonets often look un-issued. The Czech and Chillean bayonets often sell for around $20-$25 Not bad for a fun little historical artifact.

[Jeff Clark]

A useable knife doesn't have to be all that hard. Somewhere in the 40's is pretty serviceable. That is where I have found most bayonets. The shorter K98 bayonets are very tough and make good throwing knives. I cut the blade off of one of them an used it for years. Here is a previous Bladeforums thread where we discussed bayonet hardness:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...yonet+hardness

[kel_aa]

I've got a 1917 made British pattern 1907 bayonet for the Lee-Enfield recently. I consider it a piece of history, but not a preservation piece. I value it for what it is, not the quality of the finish or what not.

When I first got it I cleaned it with WD-40 thoroughly and then went through the cold bluing process (yes, the priceless patina is gone...), and I've since spent about 2 sessions sharpening it with an aluminum oxide stone. The 13 blade is taking a long time, and I am looking at another two sessions. I'm now only gotten a small section on the lower part of the blade to be of good sharpness.

I don't know as far as edge retention, but I trim two plum trees and and the low hanging twigs of a maple tree, and there was no visible wear. And I must say it I was impressed with the steel, as I dropped the bayonet tip down on some tiled flooring from about 3 feet. The tile threw some chips, but the blade tip (dull to begin with) did not deform at all.

In comparison to an M-7, I think the steel may be softer. But in my experience steel just dissappears from the edge of my M-7 (deforms and then chips off or something).

My opinion is that if you plan to just possess the item without the goal of reselling it or leaving it to be auctioned off by your grandchildren a flawless piece after your funeral, then you can very well use it as you like.