AX SHARPENING WITH POWER TOOLS

Woodcraft said:
Take this however you want but, what?
How is this different from the Hoffman video?
What has been proven in your mind? I do not like Benjamin whatsoever and even I had no doubt he could reshape metal with belts and power equipment.
If the point of this was to prove that it is safe for the edge/temper to use belts to re profile and sharpen how has this been shown?

Twas nice you gave away an ax to be "showcased" seems to have missed the mark on evidence.

How about sending it off to someone who has plenty of experience with half hatchets and happens to have one or two of that model to do an edge holding comparison?

How about it?
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Hi Woodcraft. Hey, I didn't have a horse in the powertool sharpening race but this debate gets to the same point every single time it shows up here. Ripshin has posted about this several times with the same results. I don't own a belt sander like the ones being talked about here other than a little Ryobi deal my wife got me to shape wood and a Worksharp that works well enough to quickie sharpen my machete, some throw away shop knives, and keep an edge on a homemade scraper without much downtime when I am in the middle of something.

What does it prove? I'm not sure it proves anything other than:

1. Ben will follow through with what he says he will do and is a right decent and humble character to deal with off the forum.
2. That little hatchet head was previously butchered by a grinder at some point and was then brought back by one.
3. There are a pretty good number of forum members that communicate, trade, and chat elsewhere meaning there is more going on here than just the posts.
4. A forum member was willing to offer up an unused tool to use as an example - as in to serve some purpose besides sitting in a box.
5. We got to see that he has a pretty decent setup for doing such work.
6. Ben seemed to go at it using the techniques he and the older literature recommended if you were going to do it.
7. You feel strongly about the subject and you just don't like Ben - I'm ok with both those.

Here is my position on the whole thing but given I don't do it that way it doesn't mean it can't be done without ruining something.
Agent_H said:
We are the children, right? The new food is belt-grinding?

Ripshin, can you maybe share a photo of some of your axes that you think you have put an awesome belt-ground edge on?

I find older axes that usually have worn heels and toes and big/rough gouges - some of it is from years of use, some of it is a previous owner running them on a grinder or belt sander.

I own a belt sander and a Worksharp I received as a gift from my brother. And neither of those tools is what I think of as precise tools to carefully reshape an axe bit back to a flat/straight line from the heel to toe, carefully remove material right up to a worn toe or to bring it in line with a deep banana style grind. Reaching up the center of a thick cheek in the middle to reprofile is what my concern is.

Here is what I am thinking for example:





The work from them I see is mostly a rounding of the bit to meet existing wear and make it sharp - not take it back to its original shape.

Many of the videos of guys using the belt sanders rock them back and forth from heel to toe and get them sharp but they also seems to end up with rounded bits as well.

Not giving you garbage by any means but I'm having trouble picturing a belt sander doing to my axes what files can do.
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My position is that I wanted to see what could be done with a belt sander that I didn't want to take on with a file? I don't know Woodcraft. Personally, I don't need to be right/convinced of anything but I do feel compelled to actively ask questions and I kind of feel this is the place to learn about grinders/belt sanders in the context of these tools we all use and enjoy.

Also, I don't think anything I have posted or said here runs contrary to what you or even more experienced users have stated either way but I did want to take part in the conversation.

I mean, getting past where we usually do with this subject is part of the point - right?
 
Lol I can't see what Woodcraft wrote (he's on ignore--the only forum member in my years here I've felt compelled to do that with) but he's a perpetual hanger-on with just about anything I do so I honestly consider it flattering at this point. But extrapolating from what Agent_H wrote I'd like to clarify that what is demonstrated here is not conclusive proof of the fact that the heat treatment wasn't negatively impacted (if it was, it very well could have been by the original grinding work that put it in such a sorry state) but the way it responds to grinding and the total lack of any discoloration while staying cool in use is enough of an indicator that it should be fine. What this was was a demonstration of technique in using a grinder to restore a badly worn hatchet, including the pulsing method against the contact wheel that I had cited earlier. The total process took about 15 minutes and produced a high degree of finish on all of the surfaces, with a thin and well-blended edge. :)

4100d601d046e7d86154b931b0d4ad43b9c426d38914750b680b8c96d7b5c0c0.jpg
 
Agent_H said:
Hi Woodcraft. Hey, I didn't have a horse in the powertool sharpening race but this debate gets to the same point every single time it shows up here. Ripshin has posted about this several times with the same results. I don't own a belt sander like the ones being talked about here other than a little Ryobi deal my wife got me to shape wood and a Worksharp that works well enough to quickie sharpen my machete, some throw away shop knives, and keep an edge on a homemade scraper without much downtime when I am in the middle of something.

What does it prove? I'm not sure it proves anything other than:

1. Ben will follow through with what he says he will do and is a right decent and humble character to deal with off the forum.
2. That little hatchet head was previously butchered by a grinder at some point and was then brought back by one.
3. There are a pretty good number of forum members that communicate, trade, and chat elsewhere meaning there is more going on here than just the posts.
4. A forum member was willing to offer up an unused tool to use as an example - as in to serve some purpose besides sitting in a box.
5. We got to see that he has a pretty decent setup for doing such work.
6. Ben seemed to go at it using the techniques he and the older literature recommended if you were going to do it.
7. You feel strongly about the subject and you just don't like Ben - I'm ok with both those.

Here is my position on the whole thing but given I don't do it that way it doesn't mean it can't be done without ruining something.


My position is that I wanted to see what could be done with a belt sander that I didn't want to take on with a file? I don't know Woodcraft. Personally, I don't need to be right/convinced of anything but I do feel compelled to actively ask questions and I kind of feel this is the place to learn about grinders/belt sanders in the context of these tools we all use and enjoy.

Also, I don't think anything I have posted or said here runs contrary to what you or even more experienced users have stated either way but I did want to take part in the conversation.

I mean, getting past where we usually do with this subject is part of the point - right?
Click to expand...
Perhaps, getting past is my point. I do not think I have said I feel strongly about sharpening with power tools. You are welcome to go back and point out where I have said different. I just do not. For several reasons. One of them being a pretty convincing argument made in the past on the subject.
Moving forward......page 7 on the topic in the latest thread and we have shown that a guy can profile an ax with power tools. No willingness to actually provide evidence to the temper or lack of it.
And that is my issue. If one is going to use power tools. If one is going to provide a service. Ask for cash in return for service, and here is an obvious hot topic of debate, one would think people on the power tool side of the debate would be eager to put up or shut up. Tha hand tool side of the crowd really does not have a claim to prove do they? If that side is wrong perhaps they have been overly careful. If the power tool side is incorrect they have ruined tool after tool.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Lol I can't see what Woodcraft wrote (he's on ignore--the only forum member in my years here I've felt compelled to do that with) but he's a perpetual hanger-on with just about anything I do so I honestly consider it flattering at this point. But extrapolating from what Agent_H wrote I'd like to clarify that what is demonstrated here is not conclusive proof of the fact that the heat treatment wasn't negatively impacted (if it was, it very well could have been by the original grinding work that put it in such a sorry state) but the way it responds to grinding and the total lack of any discoloration while staying cool in use is enough of an indicator that it should be fine. What this was was a demonstration of technique in using a grinder to restore a badly worn hatchet, including the pulsing method against the contact wheel that I had cited earlier. The total process took about 15 minutes and produced a high degree of finish on all of the surfaces, with a thin and well-blended edge. :)

4100d601d046e7d86154b931b0d4ad43b9c426d38914750b680b8c96d7b5c0c0.jpg
Click to expand...
I just like to point out your b.s. Fortunately for me you are banned from the one place it would do the most damage to the community.
 
Woodcraft said:
Perhaps, getting past is my point. I do not think I have said I feel strongly about sharpening with power tools. You are welcome to go back and point out where I have said different. I just do not. For several reasons. One of them being a pretty convincing argument made in the past on the subject.
Moving forward......page 7 on the topic in the latest thread and we have shown that a guy can profile an ax with power tools. No willingness to actually provide evidence to the temper or lack of it.
And that is my issue. If one is going to use power tools. If one is going to provide a service. Ask for cash in return for service, and here is an obvious hot topic of debate, one would think people on the power tool side of the debate would be eager to put up or shut up. Tha hand tool side of the crowd really does not have a claim to prove do they? If that side is wrong perhaps they have been overly careful. If the power tool side is incorrect they have ruined tool after tool.
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Fair enough. I see your points.
 
Grizzly #G1015 Knife Belt Sander/Buffer. Takes some tuning from the factory to deal with the platen and tracking issues, but for what I use it for it's a real workhorse.
 
Woodcraft said:
Perhaps, getting past is my point. I do not think I have said I feel strongly about sharpening with power tools. You are welcome to go back and point out where I have said different. I just do not. For several reasons. One of them being a pretty convincing argument made in the past on the subject.
Moving forward......page 7 on the topic in the latest thread and we have shown that a guy can profile an ax with power tools. No willingness to actually provide evidence to the temper or lack of it.
And that is my issue. If one is going to use power tools. If one is going to provide a service. Ask for cash in return for service, and here is an obvious hot topic of debate, one would think people on the power tool side of the debate would be eager to put up or shut up. Tha hand tool side of the crowd really does not have a claim to prove do they? If that side is wrong perhaps they have been overly careful. If the power tool side is incorrect they have ruined tool after tool.
Click to expand...
No one has to prove anything to someone that is ignorant, arrogant and close minded.
That's a waste of time and alot of us work for a living.

For those that don't suffer from these issues and truly want to know. Ask yourself, do you ruin the temper on an axe on a hot day when the bit gets hot in the sun hahaha don't be silly.

I think walking away from this topic we learned that there is a steep, steep learning curve to power tools.

If your new, don't practice on things you like and use
And understand it takes training, practice, and experience with the right tools.

Conversely, if you know how to use power tools its just the fastest way to get things done. Especially if you have a quota to make or have a busy schedule.
 
i am impatient. also there's a 50/50 chance my files wont cut what ever im sharpening. im cheap. instead of sharpening the file, i'll grind the thing
 
I find it funny that there is a "power tool side" of the argument at all, because no one could honestly be trying to make the argument that power tools are not effective at shaping heat treated metal without ruining the temper. The discussion could maybe be clarified. It seems that the disagreement is really just a miscommunication. People are tired of seeing axes that have been ruined with angle grinders. I agree with that, but it has nothing to do with power tools generally. We all agree that it's easier to ruin an axe with a power tool than a file. It's also easier to have a fatal crash on a Ducati than a Schwinn. Does that mean Ducati''s are bad, or does it just mean that they require more skill, care, and may not be for everyone?
 
This stuff isn't that hard. A little know how and common sense.
Park Swan said:
I find it funny that there is a "power tool side" of the argument at all, because no one could honestly be trying to make the argument that power tools are not effective at shaping heat treated metal without ruining the temper. The discussion could maybe be clarified. It seems that the disagreement is really just a miscommunication. People are tired of seeing axes that have been ruined with angle grinders. I agree with that, but it has nothing to do with power tools generally. We all agree that it's easier to ruin an axe with a power tool than a file. It's also easier to have a fatal crash on a Ducati than a Schwinn. Does that mean Ducati''s are bad, or does it just mean that they require more skill, care, and may not be for everyone?
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Yes. And there seems to be some sensitivity's in regard to any criticism of the grinders. Folks going off and getting defensive.
It was my comment that started it and I also use a belt sander.

I find the belt easier than by hand (not better), but if you folks think I am more skilled because I can use a belt OK. :)
 
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Did some work roughing out a handle today. Here are some initial drafting shots (not final shape)

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While the shape isn't what it ended up being, you can see that I adjusted the positioning of the handle so that the bit and hammer face have roughly the same presentation relative to the centerline so it won't be all weird flipping it over.

Here's the finalized template, printed and glued to the board.

19989214_10213305877029880_8308430367538539383_n.jpg


19875647_10213305881549993_1411519078450873398_n.jpg


And rough-shaped.

19904890_10213307098540417_69826373931625567_n.jpg
 
That looks awesome. That more pronounced drop on the poll end below the shoulder looks like a great handle in the making. Look at all the extra material you still have to work with :thumbsup:
 
I really like my harbor freight 1 inch belt sander but i cut my teeth with big bastard files on some really busted old heads. I would say that you need to learn build a perfect convex edge with a file before you play with power tools
 
Gotta' know the geometry you want before you play with power tools. And files go a long way to teaching good geometry
 
I think files make more precise geometry but machines save time. There's nothing like seeing the result of every file stroke before the next stroke. You don't get that with a grinder where you're work isn't visible to you. And I have a particular way I like to treat the heel and toe that I wouldn't be comfortable doing with my grinders. I also think that files are better at keeping the edge centered and straight just because you're seeing your work all the time.
 
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