in love with 5160

Will52100 said:
Nice job Chad. Testing is where it's at. What convinced me of the merits of the triple quench, at least with 52100 and 5160 is I made my father a two blade trapper several years ago and one blade had a single quench, the other a triple quench. I didn't tell him they were different heat treats, just to test it out on the farm. A few days later he let me know that while both blades did "good", one held a much better edge and was a little easier to sharpen. It was the triple quenched blade that did better. Testing, and blind testing will tell you a lot about how a blade performs, and how well you did with your heat treat.
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so you are saying that we need to have a third party tester? sounds awesome how is willing?????
 
Just an idea, but more like saying an impartial 3rd party tester, preferably somebody that doesn't know or care about heat treat methods but knows a little about how to use a knife. Say like a professional guide or butcher, somebody along those lines, give them one of each knife and let them work them for a while and see what there impressions are. Of course a simple side by side testing with specific test would give a lot of specific information, and would be potential more useful, though somebodies impressions while actually using the knife for which it was designed would be to me more useful. The average person doesn't put a knife through the abuse we do when testing.

Just my .02 cents, whether you single quench, triple quench, dance a jig or what, matters less than testing which method works best for you and your equipment and materials.
 
Good Idea Will: Many knives get used that way every day and this would be a good test - but the problem is that they do a little cutting and state their impressions but they don't really test the knife to its limits.

The whole idea of a maker testing his knives is for him to learn for himself exactly what the actual extreme limits of performance are for the blade tested. Once he fully understands, he can develop his blades for specific use and know more about his knife than the average man using one will ever know - hopefully.

The only way a maker can learn the upper limits of his blades is through testing a representative sample to destruction.

I like to think of it as providing a knife that is capable of getting the man who uses her through what ever exigent circumstances may unexpectedly await him or her.
 
I see what your saying, and I agree with you on testing a sample to destruction. I still think someone who just uses it is a good idea, then maybe back to the maker to test to destruction and push it to the limit. Or even another maker to do the testing. Or a series of makers testing except for bending and the final bending be the original maker.

Maybe a pass around test knife? Each maker puts it through a series of non destructive test based on his own test and writes up the results, just keep it clean and honest. If it doesn't perform to your expectations write how and why, if it does same thing. It wouldn't be practical for every knife out of your shop, but for one just to see how well your heat treat and edge geometry work compared to other makers? I figure both parties could learn something from that, the maker that sends his knife out to be tested and the makers doing the testing could gain valuable information. I should add, NO CLIFF STAMP CRAP.
 
We have established a a group of makers to be known as the High Endurance Performance Knife Society, HEPK for short. There are no dues other than we know the limits of our knives through our own knowledge and share these limits with our clients honestly. We also agree to openly and honestly share any knowledge, thoughts or dreams with anyone interested. Most of the members have shared time with us at our shop and are working on their own.

Members can make any knife they choose the only requirement is that we justify aspects of design or methods of developing our knives. If a design aspect of a knife cannot be justified through performance, a simple "because I like it" is good enough. A maker can make a knife that may be lacking in high endurance performance, but he should make it understood that it may not qualify as a HEPK knife.

Each is free to make what he wants to make, knowledgeable honesty is the main requirement.

As of today there are 11 Master Smiths of the HEPK.
 
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So I am going to put this out there I have a 23" x 1 1/4" x 1/4" peice of 5160 steel this is good for two 11 1/2" knives there is not much play room with this size of steel but I will start a pass around thread and will put my blade against anyone who is willing. Preferably some one who does not believe that all the extra stuff I do helps. Not to many rules just no forging only stock removal. Let me know and I will send the steel and start the thread!
 
bladsmth said:
There is a pass-around sub-forum, but this probably will get more viewing here in Shop Talk. Make sure all the pass-around rules are followed and agreed to, though.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/783-Knife-amp-Gadget-Pass-Around-Forum
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Yeah I was looking at that sounds good, I will follow all rules but I am not going to start anything untill I have someone willing to make a knife that will get destroyed, and enough people to have a good pass-around.
 
Ed Fowler said:
Chad: You have tested and you are learning what many will never know.

When you try something different you will come to know many critics, some will aid you in your quest, some will not. When you get advice, just ask those offering their opinions how they test their knives.

In the mean time, read all you can find - you will find many have traveled the road to something different and they await you in old and new texts, all you need to learn is to look at what they were making and most essentially how they tested their results.
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So Ed..How do test your knives ? I hear you say that a lot and I would like to know what you feel is a proper way for us to be testing our blades so that we are sure that we are doing it right.
 
Marko3 said:
So Ed..How do test your knives ? I hear you say that a lot and I would like to know what you feel is a proper way for us to be testing our blades so that we are sure that we are doing it right.
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I have personaly seen a video of ed bending a knife past 90 until it tears the first 1/2 of the blade. Ed tests his blades to failure so that he knows exactly what they are capable of. Cant advritise a survival knife if you have never tested it in survival ways, like building fire, building shelter, chopping trees, hammering, splitting, cutting food, skinning game, maybe even prying, all while staying very easy to keep sharp.
 
chad2 said:
I have personaly seen a video of ed bending a knife past 90 until it tears the first 1/2 of the blade. Ed tests his blades to failure so that he knows exactly what they are capable of. Cant advritise a survival knife if you have never tested it in survival ways, like building fire, building shelter, chopping trees, hammering, splitting, cutting food, skinning game, maybe even prying, all while staying very easy to keep sharp.
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Are these blades made by Ed
 
Sounds good.. My original question was to Ed but you jumped in and answered it for him.
 
Marke3: The first test of a hardened and tempered blade is the edge flex. I sharpen the blade, then I push down on the edge against a steel rod and stroke the rod with the knife watching the edge flex from ricasso to tip, turn the blade over and flex the edge again, for a total of 8 flexes. If the blade chips I sharpen and test again, if it still chips I temper it again 15 degrees hotter. Once the blade does not chip I test it for cut using one lay out of a 1 1/8th inch hemp rope until it quits cutting aggressively. I expect at least 400 cuts on the rope I am presently using. Rope varies so I have a reference blade to compare the new blade to. Usually they will go up to 1,000 cuts, but my arm gets tired and rope is expensive. I can predict how long the edge will last fairly reliably by how it is cutting after 100 cuts, but always cut more. When I quit cutting the edge should still shave hair. While grinding the blade I test the tip by jamming it into mild steel, if the tip shows damage I re-shape it, if it continues to deform the blade will be scrapped. I consider tip strength to be an essential aspect of design, geometry and heat treat for a knife intended for dependable use.

If the edge holds up, I polish the blade to a mirror finish, then etch the blade to see what the grain structure and the results of my forging and my heat treat looks like. If I don't like what I see the blade is tested to destruction to verify what I saw in the etch, it will not become a finished knife. I believe that etching a blade is a very significant aspect of testing because you can see the true nature of the blade. Every b lade I have made for the past 30 + years has been etched for this reason.

I test a representative sample of blades that pass the first tests to destruction by placing them in a vice and attaching a jig I made that allows me to measure how much torque it takes to flex the blade. I flex the blade to 90 degrees one way, watch to see how much it returns to straight on its own, then straighten it with the torque wrench and then flex it 90 degrees the other way, again watching how much torque is required. I continue to flex the blade right and left until the cutting edge or hardened portion of the blade tears. When it tears the tear should run up to the soft part of the blade and form a Y where it meets the softer portion of the blade instead of breaking the blade into two pieces. At this time I could straighten the blade and still use it as a knife if needed.

I believe that a blade that is intended for medium to heavy use should require a minimum of 70 foot pounds of torque to bend to 90 degrees.

Once a blade has been tested to destruction I examine the grain structure inside of the blade. I want to see a martensite pyramid (fine grain) in the cross section of the blade surrounded by larger grain. I am very pleased when the hard part tears in stages rather than at one time.

If I have any questions or something to brag about I send the blade to the lab and get my metallurgist to tell me what he sees.

There is naturally more to it that what I have described, but the above is the essence of my testing.

Thanks for asking!
 
You agree on testing a sample to destruction, but no Cliff Stamp crap? Isn't testing to destruction what Cliff does? Please explain what you mean.

Will52100 said:
I see what your saying, and I agree with you on testing a sample to destruction. I still think someone who just uses it is a good idea, then maybe back to the maker to test to destruction and push it to the limit. Or even another maker to do the testing. Or a series of makers testing except for bending and the final bending be the original maker.

Maybe a pass around test knife? Each maker puts it through a series of non destructive test based on his own test and writes up the results, just keep it clean and honest. If it doesn't perform to your expectations write how and why, if it does same thing. It wouldn't be practical for every knife out of your shop, but for one just to see how well your heat treat and edge geometry work compared to other makers? I figure both parties could learn something from that, the maker that sends his knife out to be tested and the makers doing the testing could gain valuable information. I should add, NO CLIFF STAMP CRAP.
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Good testing idea's Ed, pretty similar to what I do, including on occasion hacking into seasoned hickory and scrap antler, sometimes dropping point first into the concrete floor to see what if any point damage. Every once in a while I'll finish a knife with a handle and guard, complete but no fine finishing and hours of sandpaper work and destroy it.

What I mean by "No Cliff Stamp Crap" is no unrealistic testing by other members. One person could test it to destruction, but what about the next guy? While I advocate testing a sample to destruction I never suggested that for a pass around test knife.
 
Chad2, I don't think you should drop the testing of two of your own knives with different heat treatments. As it stands, in my mind, your heat treatment seems to be inefficient. After you finish testing your knives, you can cut cross sections and look at the grain pattern inside the blade. And there is no need to have someone else HT your blades. You can do them yourself. Also, I admire your courage in being willing to put your knife out for testing in the manner that you have.
 
Just a voice of contention, but not everyone agrees on what makes a good knife. I haven't found a need for a rough use blade to bend anywhere near 90 degrees before it breaks, and I edge flex tested several of my knives, both production and 2 home made, and all passed except one of the home made ones. It was annealed 1095, left that way intentionally. Destructive testing can certainly be useful. One needs to know exactly what the knife is supposed to do before hand though.
 
I understand your sentiment. It may be the difference in our past experience or life style. Much of my life I worked alone and my emergency response team was my dog, horse and me. Before that I worked in law enforcement and witnessed the wrecks that were sometimes life threatening, both for human and animal I once wrote an article where several men perished due to a knife that broke. I have experienced knives that broke when I needed them most and had to baby a knife through some very tough times.

Obviously not every knife need to be a High Endurance Performance Knife. There is a place for every knife from the cheap copies out of Pakistan, China to the first knife most of us made years ago.

All I suggest is that each of us who make knives should know the performance qualities of our knives from our own personal testing and be honest with the client who may purchase one.

My crystal ball does not reveal much about the future, I nor anyone else knows what is ahead of us. This is the sole motivation behind my desire to make a knife that I pray will not fail when desperately needed.
 
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