3M 784f belts

[jeness]

Hello Gents,

Did someone try out these new 784f belts? Seems like they are the latest and greatest in their lineup, and an alternative to the 3M 984 belts. Looks like they make them in 36-180 grit, are made for low-medium pressure, refracture at lower speeds, can be used with water, have a semi flexible backing,and cost almost the same as the 984. Seems too good to be true but I am going to try a few, just wanted to ask if someone has already tried them.

 

[Alan Davis Knives]

Hello Gents,

Did someone try out these new 784f belts? Seems like they are the latest and greatest in their lineup, and an alternative to the 3M 984 belts. Looks like they make them in 36-180 grit, are made for low-medium pressure, refracture at lower speeds, can be used with water, have a semi flexible backing,and cost almost the same as the 984. Seems too good to be true but I am going to try a few, just wanted to ask if someone has already tried them.

Never mind, I misread and thought you were referring to the 984F cubitrons. I have not tried the 784f yet but would certainly be interested in hearing from anyone who has used them.

 

[javand]

Hello Gents,

Did someone try out these new 784f belts? Seems like they are the latest and greatest in their lineup, and an alternative to the 3M 984 belts. Looks like they make them in 36-180 grit, are made for low-medium pressure, refracture at lower speeds, can be used with water, have a semi flexible backing,and cost almost the same as the 984. Seems too good to be true but I am going to try a few, just wanted to ask if someone has already tried them.

I personally didn't love them, although I was certain I would. On paper, they're supposed to be better for what the industry refers to as "off-hand grinding", and break down under lower pressure, exposing fresh sharp grain. In my shop, with my machines, my methods, and materials, I didn't find them to be as good as the 984F's. However, that may simply be because I'm running a 3hp motor on my primary grinder with a 6" drive wheel and the 2x jumper set, and do my low grit grinding at 80-100% speed.

For me, the 984F, and the Norton Blaze belts are the best general premium ceramics, with the yellow 967 cubitron's being the best for hardened steel grinding, however, considering the current cost of these, I've stopped buying them, since I can get 3 blaze belts, for the cost of 2 of these, and I don't think they're that much more effective.

 

[skillgannon]

Plus 1 on that. I saved them for hardened steel and then used them for 2 chef knives and 2 pairing knives and thought they were great. Then I tossed on a new blaze and reevaluated everything all over again. I'm not sure that I like the blaze better.

 

[jeness]

Okay, looks like I will stay with the 984 belts than

 

[javand]

I'd actually highly recommend you try them. It seems to be highly dependent on certain variables, as to which belt will perform the best for each of us. Your methods, materials, and tools may be different enough that they perform great. I certainly know a few other makers that absolutely love them, they just didn't work out for me. They're definitely not junk belts.

 

[jeness]

I am glad I asked, must buy 1 of each and try them side by side. Will report back if I get a chance to grind a few blades with both.

 

[skillgannon]

I would grab 3. They will be good belts that just cost a bit more so it's not a extra large exepence. I bought 1 in each grit and really liked the but I was using VSM belts first. When the belt had wore just a bit I got the brigh idea to compare it to a blaze that I forgot I had and the couldn't decide if the 784f was worth it. I would try them again . I started using the vsm because I did more or less the same test against the blaze and the vsm are cheaper. You have to grind a few knives to get a idea of that sharpness curve before scraping

 

[javand]

I would grab 3. They will be good belts that just cost a bit more so it's not a extra large exepence. I bought 1 in each grit and really liked the but I was using VSM belts first. When the belt had wore just a bit I got the brigh idea to compare it to a blaze that I forgot I had and the couldn't decide if the 784f was worth it. I would try them again . I started using the vsm because I did more or less the same test against the blaze and the vsm are cheaper. You have to grind a few knives to get a idea of that sharpness curve before scraping

Well, if he's already using 984F's, they aren't any more expensive than those. Last time I bought some they were actually cheaper. Check with Pop's if you haven't, he usually has the best prices on these.

 

[jdm61]

I haven't used the Blaze belts since they modified the formula to keep them from shedding glue at high heat/pressure levels and gumming up your platen. The old ones were still much better than the blue zirconia belts, but I have found that the 984's are the best that I have tried. You arguably don't even need to buy 36 grit belts for normal knife grinding. I have been using 50, 60 and 80 grit. What I am still looking for is the ultimate 120 grit wet/dry belt of that type.

 

[javand]

I haven't used the Blaze belts since they modified the formula to keep them from shedding glue at high heat/pressure levels and gumming up your platen. The old ones were still much better than the blue zirconia belts, but I have found that the 984's are the best that I have tried. You arguably don't even need to buy 36 grit belts for normal knife grinding. I have been using 50, 60 and 80 grit. What I am still looking for is the ultimate 120 grit wet/dry belt of that type.

I personally felt the same way, but at $6.75 (they were $6.25), for 50 grit blaze belts (and yes, they're better now), it's pretty hard to justify the 984's at $3 each more, except for use on Titanium (of which no other belt compares to the 984F IMO for Ti), and I also just buy 50's and 80's, and don't bother with 36s.

That's Pop's prices, and apparently Norton is being very aggressive with pricing to try and get his business, and take market share from 3m.


I personally *LOVE* the 984F's in 120, and still buy them. My grinding method requires a stiff (X weight) 120 belt, and I only use the J-flexes for handle work at this grit, but a buddy of mine swears the 947A Cubitron II's are better in this grit.

 

[javand]

Actually I'm realizing now, that it's the 947A Cubitron II's I was talking about in this thread also. I haven't tried the 784's either, don't know anybody carrying them?

The 947's were advertised exactly the same as the 784's though, as a low pressure, high break down rate belt for off-hand grinding. Hell I'm even seeing a 723A Cubitron II belt. 3M really needs to get their shit together with the branding and model numbers, it's beyond confusing.

 

[jdm61]

I have tried both of the 3m's and the 120's just don't have the life span of the heavier belts. A 50 grit 984F is usable to some degree until you wear out the backing/joint. I may have to try the new and improved Blaze belts again if they are that much cheaper. What I am looking for is a tough belt with stiff backing in 180-220 that is waterproof. I use the 160 grit
Gator for a lot of stuff, but I am not sure that it is actually supposed to be used even damp.

I personally felt the same way, but at $6.75 (they were $6.25), for 50 grit blaze belts (and yes, they're better now), it's pretty hard to justify the 984's at $3 each more, except for use on Titanium (of which no other belt compares to the 984F IMO for Ti), and I also just buy 50's and 80's, and don't bother with 36s.

That's Pop's prices, and apparently Norton is being very aggressive with pricing to try and get his business, and take market share from 3m.


I personally *LOVE* the 984F's in 120, and still buy them. My grinding method requires a stiff (X weight) 120 belt, and I only use the J-flexes for handle work at this grit, but a buddy of mine swears the 947A Cubitron II's are better in this grit.

 

[javand]

I have tried both of the 3m's and the 120's just don't have the life span of the heavier belts. A 50 grit 984F is usable to some degree until you wear out the backing/joint. I may have to try the new and improved Blaze belts again if they are that much cheaper. What I am looking for is a tough belt with stiff backing in 180-220 that is waterproof. I use the 160 grit
Gator for a lot of stuff, but I am not sure that it is actually supposed to be used even damp.

I agree, they don't last, that's why I ordered a handful of the 120 grit X weight VSM's to try this last order, since they're MUCH cheaper. I honestly don't like the course grit VSM belts at all personally, I feel like the 50 grit blaze or 984s are a better value for me, but in the case of 120's, I'm thinking I'd rather have 2 or 3 VSM belts for the same price as one 3m, just to have more initial sharpness. When I jump to 120, I usually need that sharp cut, more than I need overall grinding time, and find myself spending more on 120's than other abrasives because of it.

 

[javand]

I have tried both of the 3m's and the 120's just don't have the life span of the heavier belts. A 50 grit 984F is usable to some degree until you wear out the backing/joint. I may have to try the new and improved Blaze belts again if they are that much cheaper. What I am looking for is a tough belt with stiff backing in 180-220 that is waterproof. I use the 160 grit
Gator for a lot of stuff, but I am not sure that it is actually supposed to be used even damp.

I'm using the 3m 348D for that, it's just an AO belt, but it's stiff, rides the platen really well, and doesn't curl or cup. Doesn't last long (but nothing does past 120 IMO), not sure it's rated for wet grinding, but I soak them dipping between passes and don't have too much trouble. At 220/240 for me, if I've done the previous steps correctly, it's 2-3 passes per side, just cleaning up scratches, so typically I'm good with 1 belt, but they're like $2 each, so I'm not crying if I end up using 2.

 

[jdm61]

The only finer grit belts that I have found that last a long time are the Gators and they are not cheap. They seem to wear down to a certain point initially and then just hang there for a while. Kind of like the D2 of belts. That can be a bit of an issue if you are grinding small parts and you can get a more worn spot in the center of the belt, but that may be the case for all heavy duty belts to some degree. It is just more noticeable with the gators because the "scales" get a bit mashed down. One of the better bargains that I have found over the years in an AO belt was the finer girt blue/gray Hermes belts. Their heavier AO belts kinda suck, but those were decent. No lifespan, but a lot cheaper than the yellow Klingspors.

I'm using the 3m 348D for that, it's just an AO belt, but it's stiff, rides the platen really well, and doesn't curl or cup. Doesn't last long (but nothing does past 120 IMO), not sure it's rated for wet grinding, but I soak them dipping between passes and don't have too much trouble. At 220/240 for me, if I've done the previous steps correctly, it's 2-3 passes per side, just cleaning up scratches, so typically I'm good with 1 belt, but they're like $2 each, so I'm not crying if I end up using 2.

 

[javand]

The only finer grit belts that I have found that last a long time are the Gators and they are not cheap. They seem to wear down to a certain point initially and then just hang there for a while. Kind of like the D2 of belts. That can be a bit of an issue if you are grinding small parts and you can get a more worn spot in the center of the belt, but that may be the case for all heavy duty belts to some degree. It is just more noticeable with the gators because the "scales" get a bit mashed down. One of the better bargains that I have found over the years in an AO belt was the finer girt blue/gray Hermes belts. Their heavier AO belts kinda suck, but those were decent. No lifespan, but a lot cheaper than the yellow Klingspors.

Yeah, I personally cannot stand the yellow klingspor J-flexes. I only buy the blue Hermes in 120, 220, and 400, and then the 800 grit Awuko's.

Have you tried the ceramic gators or the ceramic norax belts yet? I haven't tried the gators, but I really like the ceramic norax's. Worth every penny IMO. I use them mostly on the surface grinder, just because I have a very specific process for my blade grinding, but if you use structured abrasives in your process, I'd say that from what I've seen, the ceramic versions are much better at continuing to cut aggressively.

 

[jdm61]

The Gators were my biggest discovery since I switched from blue zirconia to Blaze and then to 984F. DRASTIC improvement. The other "secret weapon" that I was turned onto by Karl Andersen were the Nicolson #49 and #50 cabinet makers rasps. They work great for rough shaping wood.

Yeah, I personally cannot stand the yellow klingspor J-flexes. I only buy the blue Hermes in 120, 220, and 400, and then the 800 grit Awuko's.

Have you tried the ceramic gators or the ceramic norax belts yet? I haven't tried the gators, but I really like the ceramic norax's. Worth every penny IMO. I use them mostly on the surface grinder, just because I have a very specific process for my blade grinding, but if you use structured abrasives in your process, I'd say that from what I've seen, the ceramic versions are much better at continuing to cut aggressively.

 

[Willie71]

I agree, they don't last, that's why I ordered a handful of the 120 grit X weight VSM's to try this last order, since they're MUCH cheaper. I honestly don't like the course grit VSM belts at all personally, I feel like the 50 grit blaze or 984s are a better value for me, but in the case of 120's, I'm thinking I'd rather have 2 or 3 VSM belts for the same price as one 3m, just to have more initial sharpness. When I jump to 120, I usually need that sharp cut, more than I need overall grinding time, and find myself spending more on 120's than other abrasives because of it.

I really like the 60 grit VSM belts on medium alloy steels like cru-wear. Not impressed with the 36grit belts, but the 60 and 120 are good.

 

[skillgannon]

I buy mostly CAN with a few blaze. The blaze seam to hog better for longer but they all go flat pretty quick if I'm not giving them enough pressure. Running full out helps a little. The VSM are easier to throw away when I'm doing kitchen knives and grinding after they are hardened. You reach a point that you can't lean into them