5160 inclusions?

C-Camerer

C-Camerer

Joined
Nov 1, 2000
Messages
806
Recently I have been finding inclusions in 5160 when I am finish grinding. The inclusions run length wise with the blades. They range from extremely shallow to some that I have been unable to sand out. I am using the following sequence: forging the 5160, then normalizing, annealing in vermiculite, rough grinding, double normalizing, triple quenching in 135 degree quench, triple drawing at 350 degrees. When I am forging I am staying in the cherry red range. Am I causing these inclusions or has someone else had expierence with this?
 
I have never had the trouble you are describing. I think you may be over treating the 5160. The 52100 will work great with your Method. 5160 is a simple steel and generaly only requires single quench and temper.

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ABS Journeyman Smith, Bruce D Bump
 
I had and have continued to have, the very same problem with 5160 however: only in the one inch and the one and a quarter inch stock. I thought I was doing something wrong till both Harvey Dean and Jerry Fisk confirmed the same problem. For some reason (Bruce B., do you generally use the wider stuff?) the one and a half and up has no such problems. I got my steel, the problem steel that is, from "Security" steel. They are the largest supplyer of spring steel in the country and, my I say, loath to admit any problems with their product. In their defense however I must remind myself that the intended application for this steel is not a little sliver of high priced cutlery, but instead, a damned car spring! I've tried running down other manufactures but there's too many snags.
Now for a remedy. Use 01 for everything less than one and a half inch. It's by far better steel; even Bob Loveless when cornered recently in a "Blade" article had to admit (he currently uses bm-42 (?) and ats-34) that there is but a nat's hair between the edge holding and toughness capabilities of the exotic steels and just properly handled 01.
I have found a place to buy 01 for a price that's just embarassingly cheap 1/4 X 1 1/2 X 3 feet for about 17.00 or so. If you consider what time you have in a knife when those nasty inclusions show up this is a bargain. From what I can tell, this price is about a third of what some vendors sell this steel for; <a href=mailto:mitchwilkins@main.com><fontcolor=red>email</a></font> me at work and I'll get you a phone number.

regards, mitch


Here below is a link to the thread moderated by Jerry Fisk where he awnsers an earlier question an 5160 problems:<a href=http://pub1.ezboard.com/fknifeartcomforumsforgedabsbladesforum.showMessage?topicID=65.topic>click here...</a>


[This message has been edited by anvilring (edited 06-15-2001).]
 
Hey Bruce B. I forgot to ask, where do you get your 5160 and what sizes are you useing...

regards, mitch
 
Mitch!
That's all we need is another "Wilkins" on the forum!
smile.gif
Kevin and I thought we had it covered! Nice meeting you and your father at the Hammer-in last month.

I guess we all have to come up with a different mark now!
smile.gif


C Wilkins
 
Its nice to have all these Wilkins on here.
Mitch, I buy my 5160 from Jeff Carlyle at Swains Spring Service. Yes I buy the 2" wide flat bar, It doesnt need much forging except to make the distal taper and the tip. Mostly I forge round ball bearings into blanks and grind them down from there. O1 is good steel and easier to heat treat though.

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ABS Journeyman Smith, Bruce D Bump
 
Thanks for the info! I should have searched the archives but I was just so frustrated I posted the question directly. Unfortunately I just purchased about 50' of this material and I am hesitant to use it now!

 
C-
Just in case you haven't been back over there, Ed Caffrey came up with a pretty good answer for you over at his site at CKD.
 
I was about to order some .25 X 1 inch 5160 bar for making damascus with 52100. Would these inclustions become minumized or disappear during the forge welding and multiple drawing procceses involved to get to about 200 layers when I started with a 10 layer billet. Or would they still pop up as very visable inperfections.


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Robert
Flat Land Knife Works
rdblad@telusplanet.net
http://members.tripod.com/knifeworks/index.html
 
Just discovered that at least part of my memory is working well. Couldn't remember the details exactly, but was sure when I read your numbers that they weren't the same Ed Fowler wrote in his book.

I know zip, really, about forging, steel properties, etc., except for what I've read here, on the web, magazines and Ed's book. I somehow doubt that different temperatures would cure inclusions, but who knows. To my uneducated mind, I'd look to either "dirty" steel, or inadequate forging, or forging too close to finish size.

According to Ed's book, he heats his quench oil to 160 degrees. He measures with a thermometer. He triple quenches. He triple tempers at 375 degrees. Possibly important, he forges something like 3/16ths oversize, because the steel on the surface has had the carbon burned out of it. When he grinds off the excess, he is getting down to the "good" steel. I believe he also uses a liquid nitrogen quench as well.

Hope this helps.
smile.gif


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Asi es la vida

Bugs
 
you can eliminate the burning out of carbon buy using a slightly carberizing atmosphere during forging.

Best Regards,
Arthur D. Washburn
ADW Custom Knives
 
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