A-1 laminated - Q to Cliff Stamp

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Dec 29, 2000
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399
Hi, Cliff,

recently the Fallkniven offers A-1, S-1, and F-1 knives with a laminated VG-10. There is about 2 mm tick VG-10 (core) which is sandwiched between 420J2. The 420J2 is hardened to 54-55 Rc, and the VG-10 to usual 59 Rc. It is claimed that a laminated A-1 has 20% larger impact(?) strength.

I would appreciate your comments - is it worthwile to by a new one? Are there some weak point in going to the laminated steel?

I own the A-1 which is hardened to 60 HRC (the first 500 had 60 HRC, and saber grind, with V-edge).

Regards,

Franco
 
Franco G :

Are there some weak point in going to the laminated steel?

It is weaker. The softer sides will allow the blade to bend easier though it will actually bend further before it breaks. It would be informative for Fallkniven to give the torques necessary for when both blades first take a permanent bend, the laminated one probably goes first.

A related issue is in regards to the edge. How much of the edge is formed of the softer sides of the laminate, and how well centered is this core in the blades. If this wavers at all you could end up with an edge of AISI 420 which is going to go blunt really fast and get dinged up very quickly.

I own the A-1 which is hardened to 60 HRC (the first 500 had 60 HRC, and saber grind, with V-edge).

The switch over to full convex grinds was a positive on in regards to cutting ability and general ease of sharpening. However I would not actually buy a new one to get this geometry, it is something that you can easily do for yourself with 15 minutes and some sandpaper, or other abrasive you are comfortable with.

In short, no, I personally don't have any desire to rush out and try one of the laminates, especially when considering comments such as made in threads like :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=216178


-Cliff
 
I have the A2 with laminated blade. It appears to be a heavy duty knife that I would trust under most circumstances. The blade is seriously thick and I doubt you could easily cause it to delaminate. I was wondering exactly what are you guys planning to do with a knife to destroy something like the A2? It's a knife not an axe.
 
Splitting the laminate is generally not a concern. However if this knife is not intended to be used as an axe then it is a very incoherent and inefficient design. One of the main reasons of making a blade so thick and heavy to give it enough power to chop and split decently well.


-Cliff
 
Cliff:

Well maybe it's an odd design or not. I've used it to cut/chop softer woods like palm and pine. It seems to work just fine for that work. I don't use knives to chop on hardwoods - that's what an axe is for in my book (besides we don't have much hardwood in San Diego). My A2 has an excellent edge with the VG10 seemingly perfectly centered - there is no 420 in the edge. :cool:
 
Many, many moons ago (Kennedy was president) I purchased by first mail order knife. It was a "Norse King" laminated blade Mora knife. It was advertised that you could bend the blade 90 degrees and it would not break. As a teenager I didn't realize that this was not an elastic bend and that the blade would not spring back to true with even minimal deflection. To say the least I was disappointed.

After years of owning knives I still don't see much point in having a knife that bends this easily. For light duty I would use a thin blade that was harder and would bend less easily. For heavy duty I would use a thicker blade with a more moderate hardness throughout. If I had a laminated blade I would probably want the sides to be 56 RC and the edge to be 60. I don't see big advantages to doing this with stainless alloys. It would be more interesting to use a shock grade steel on the outside and M2 for the edge. That might make an interesting heavy duty knife.
 
Loki :

I've used it to cut/chop softer woods like palm and pine. It seems to work just fine for that work.

A five dollar machete will chop on soft woods like pine all day long. A high end blade should not be so limited in scope of work. You can easily buy a knife for far cheaper than the Fallkniven laminate that will easily chop all kinds of hardwoods.

I don't use knives to chop on hardwoods - that's what an axe is for ...

Quality wood cutting axes (Gransfors Bruks) are not overly thick at the edge nor ground at obtuse angles. The profiles are in fact far thinner than common tactical knives, and can run with the best of the current production blades. They are usually fifteen degrees or so at the very edge with a very large relief grind.

I would bet the edges on the Bruks axes are easily in the same class and possible thinner than the Fallkniven bowie laminate. If the Fallkniven is much more acute at the edge, under 10 degrees per side, then it would not be fair to expect them to be able to cut hardwoods or bone as Peter commented. If this is the case, this kind of geometry should probably be noted on the website .

Jeff :

I still don't see much point in having a knife that bends this easily.

It is common for the Japanese to use very mild metals for the sides of laminates. This was primarily done because it was cheap. Why make the whole blade out of quality steel since only the edge does the cutting. The easy to machine side laminates also speed up sharpening as the Japanese typically use very wide bevels and have you contacting a huge area when honing. The very soft bodies also make them very shock absorbant which can be a benefit for reducing vibrations in use. I am not totally sold on the latter you would want to compare a similar knife with a full hardening to be sure.

The weakness of the blade isn't a factor in Japanese knives as they would not get called on to be subjected to lateral stress, you simply would not pry with them. If you do, most of them can be broken trivially. Compare a Japanse saw with a western one, the western ones are almost impossible to break, but you can without effort buckle a Japanese saw in a "w" shape. Same with laminate puukkos compared to the full carbon steel ones. So I can see a laminate having a place as a high performance cutting tool but with significant restrictions as general use.

The higher impact strength of the blades isn't generally a functional advantage if they are really soft, similar with differential tempers/hardenings that have near annealed spines. While the knives will take direct pounding well, they are very easy to buckle so they don't last long in that kind of rough use. This way of thinking is also kind of outdated in the sense that there are now steels that are not brittle even when full hard, CPM-3V for example at 58 RC, L6, S7 , etc. , they are also very cheap and easy to obtain, especially when you consider the cost of the alternatives.

I passed around the idea of a very high performance laminate with Phil Wilson awhile ago, CPM-10V or 15V core and CPM-3V or 1V sides. The problem is that you still have to have the edge be able to take the shock of hard use so you can't go really extreme with the core. Maybe a core of CPM-3V at ~58 RC and sides of S7 at ~55 RC. You need to have care in matching the steels or otherwise heat treating is going to be difficult. Would this blade however have any practical advantage over made of CPM-1V - probably not. Would be fun to work with though.

-Cliff
 
Cliff, you might be interested in the technology going on here:

http://engr.smu.edu/rcam/

Follow the link under "Laser Processing" to the "Laser Based Additive Manufacturing System (LBAM)"

I have seen this system in operation. RCAM can create 3 dimensional gradient composites out of virtually any combination of materials.

They could theoretically create a knife with a brass spine, cobalt center, 420 exterior surface, CPM-10V edge, and a tungsten point. All without abrupt transitions like in laminates. Instead they create gradient transitions between the alloys and can do so in any axis.

They do this by lasing the powdered elements into a solid in a process similar to stereolithography. I watched them whip up CPM-10V on the fly out of the microscopically powdered alloying elements.
 
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