a good read on winter clothing

Thanks for that.

The author of the first article is known as "Professor Popsicle" for his experiments related to hypothermia :)
 
From the bio on Andy K. "More succinctly, Metro magazine claims that he “makes Ray Mears look like Paris Hilton”. " :eek:haha

I have no plans to do such extreme things. I like to stay on the ground where the trees grow al'round.

I liked this:

3) Moisture removal at the end of the
day. It is best to avoid the “weekend
adventurer syndrome” where many
mistakes are made, not corrected, and
merely tolerated because one can put
up with almost anything for a few
days. One should always act as if
clothing and equipment will be used on
a continual daily basis.

This is the way I try to do my wilderness travel. As if it is part of a continual daily experience.
 
messages are basically the same- dress in appropriate layers, you don't need much clothing while moving (you will when stopped!), stay dry and stay alive

More of the same: My old Team Sergeant used to say, "If you're not cold, you're wrong."

In other words, while you're patrolling (or otherwise working), you should feel slightly cold. If you don't feel cold, open up the jacket, remove layers, open the shirt. Whatever it takes. Taking off the hat, scarf, and/or gloves helps alot too. Gotta stay dry and being slightly cold is the way to do it.

Consciously check every so often, every few minutes, to ensure you're slightly cold. Otherwise, you'll end up wet (perspiring) and VERY VERY cold.
 
Good stuff, I especially liked:

“To begin with don't hang your hopes on wonder wicking fabrics and highly breathable shells. The fabric and outdoor companies will try and persuade you they have the technology to keep you warm and dry whatever the weather or rate of perspiration, but this is impossible because YOU'RE the problem, not the fabric.

Even a string vest, the most breathable thing you can wear, will become sweaty and raise your body temperature over 37°C if you're pushing it, so how can a layer of polypropylene or polyester ever hope to keep you from chilling? No, the first defence against overheating and chilling is to use these super fabrics correctly so they are not called on to do the impossible.”

That's a nice foil to the seemingly never ending stream of nitwits that prattle on about how much they sweat in Gore-Tex and so on. Beyond using it wisely there's nothing you can do with any fabric, and perhaps the best solution lay in getting a bit fitter so you don't sweat like a pig at the first hint of exertion,

One thing I would add to this stuff because it seems completely overlooked on many forums [in fact I think I'm the only person that I've seen mention it on this one] is the role of friction between the layers. Whilst multiple thin layers is excellent advice the downside is friction between the layers, and that literally is a drag, especially on the arms and legs.

“....It has been shown that the increase in weight and the number of clothing layers will increase the work load, and differences of up to 50% have been found between the friction values of dry fabrics. Friction between fabrics causes a resistance to movement and increases the workload attributable to clothing. To preserve performance and freedom of movement, it is vital to keep friction as low as possible in the body parts that have to perform large movements, such as the arms and legs. Clothing with low friction between the layers increases performance by 7-13% relative to clothing with high friction.”

Clothing Physiological Properties of the New Military Combat Clothing and its Effect on Survivability and Performance in Long-Term Cold Exposure - Finnish Institute of Occupational Health

In fact, that exactly one of the reasons I still really enjoy the now very dated Buffalo gear in comparison to a bunch of wool jumpers with an anorak over the top. Not only is the system light, flexible, and easy to ventilate but because each layer has its own wind proof shell there's a high degree of slipperiness between the layers. I've described it before as like being in a well oiled set of gimbals.

“The most challenging environment for conscripts' survivability and performance was not extreme cold but a combination of cold with perspiration during physical activity, external moisture and wet snow.”

“The weight, thickness and stiffness of the clothing and the friction between the clothing layers affect physical performance and limit movement of the extremities. The results presented here define the protection provided for conscripts by the Defence Forces' new ...”

[op cit]

That strikes a chord. Sitting around in the cold and I can wrap up in a down jacket, easy. I could pile on some huge Aran sweaters that fishermen found great for standing around in the cold. I could make a poncho out of carpet for all the difference it makes. But none of those are good for me at the time when I am actually doing something,

“Each additional kg in clothing weight increases energy costs approximately by 3% and each additional layer by 4%. Increased energy costs are associated with a decrease in physical performance: the decrease is task specific, and roughly comparable to the changes in the energy costs. The decrement in performance can be minimized by decreasing clothing weight and bulkiness as well as the friction between the clothing layers as well as the number of clothing layers. Minimal friction is important in sites where large range of movements is expected like in trouser legs and sleeves of jackets.”

Performance and energy expenditure in cold environments.
Finnish Institute of Occupational Health

I've posted this last link before but I think it holds good. The extreme nature of expedition circumstances illustrate my point rather well:

In short, the Mountain Heritage Trust and a bunch of universities are examining and building replicas of expedition clothing from the beginning of the last century.

“After assessing the insulation and wind protection of the clothing, Professor Havenith found that the clothing worn by Scott and his team, which largely consisted of coarse layers of wool, was only marginally less insulating than that worn by Amundsen, whose team wore fur. Compared to modern day arctic clothing however, both outfits provided up to 30 percent less insulation.

During this project we discovered that overall there was not a big difference between the insulation and wind protection offered by the two outfits,” said Professor Havenith. “However we did discover a difference between the friction levels within the two sets of clothing. Scott’s apparel consisted of layers of coarse fabrics, many of wool, which had higher friction levels than the layers of slippery furs worn by Amundsen. This extra friction, combined with Scott’s way of travelling being far more physically draining, meant that the garments his team wore would have resulted in them expending up to 20 percent more energy than generally assumed – using up precious calories and supplies.”
“But there was one aspect of Mallory’s outfit that impressed Professor Havenith the most – the layering. “I had discovered through the research into Scott and Amundsen’s clothing how important correct layering was for the energy cost,” he said. “With Mallory, each time he wore a coarse layer, for example of wool, he layered it with a slippery fabric, such as silk. When you package these types of fabric together the clothing moves very easily which means the movement of the person wearing the layers is not restricted and energy cost is low. The way Mallory wore his many layers would have made climbing in the overall outfit very easy. If you compare this to Scott’s clothing, his outfit had a lot more friction internally which obviously has an impact on energy consumption and would slow you down. Ergonomically Mallory’s clothing was very well designed.”
http://www.lboro.ac.uk/service/publicity/publications/view/springsummer08/mallory.html
 
I pack my down or syn puffy near the top of pack so it's easy to access, when I make a stop (and the temp dictates it)- it comes out and gets layered over the top of everything

^interesting on the friction- most of my winter activities are highly aerobic- snowshoeing, x country skiing, trail running, etc so while I layer- there aren't many layers- a very thin base layer- usually syn as it dries quicker than merino, often while moving this is the only layer- if I'm chilled a windshirt goes on top of that, still cold- a midlayer- typically a R1 (fleece) pullover or R2 vest- that takes me well below 0 when on the move, when stopped I pull out my puffy layer that goes over the top of everything

the most challenging environment to dress for in the winter is not extreme cold IMO, but rather temps that hang around freezing w/ precipitation- a hard shell is called for and it's very tough to stay dry w/ a hard shell (regardless of the material/price/or manufacturer claim to the otherwise) when moving
 
the most challenging environment to dress for in the winter is not extreme cold IMO, but rather temps that hang around freezing w/ precipitation- a hard shell is called for and it's very tough to stay dry w/ a hard shell (regardless of the material/price/or manufacturer claim to the otherwise) when moving
sold.
 
Thanks for bumping that, was a good read. Now to go to the closet and sort out those hard shells and soft shells and clamshells...

mercurial
 
Thanks for the info. As a mountain biker I constantly sweat on rides, even in the 40's I typically climb up hills in just shorts and a jersey, then when I get to the top on goes the vest, arm warmers knees warmers and fresh dry gloves. The tricky part is yes cool temps and precipitation. Short of taking a spare set of clothes I will always be soaked for the ride down, just from the output. In dry temps it's not an issue becuase I dry out on the descent, but in rainy conditions, I slap on a rain jacket over soaked clothes and it's a miserable descent. I'm talking descents of 9-13 miles of fairly high speed fire roads.

I've also just purchased tix to Patagonia in January. I'm still trying to figure out what to bring/leave at home for that trip, but I'm excited!
 
^ high aerobic activities in cool/cold weather are "tricky"- no doubt about it, sounds like you have a very workable system :)
 
bump for an old thread; but the reads however are still very germane for any of venturing out in the winter :D
 
Very topical for me right now.

Two weeks ago it was a bit nippy with a “feels like” temp of about -5C, and it was dry.

A mate and I have a pattern running of doing overnight treddering Monday into Tuesday. Sometimes it is themed but mostly it is whimsical. We might stop for a couple of hours to fish river or sea, might stop for a few mins to refuel, or could stop for a bit to cook up a feast. Only with the fishing and feasting type stuff is there a prior warning to load up heavy. Everything else is just done from your base gear. I won't know whether he is going to bring some fancy fangled coffee thing we will have to wait for, or how much loading he will put on the vodka. And he wont know how strong my cigarettes are. Might go miles and miles with only brief pauses all night long, or the whole night might just be three big chunks of relatively static. Whatever, it is the punctuation points that'll get you.

So, two weeks ago he got cold. Not dangerously cold but very uncomfortable. Three hours of sitting out on a sea pontoon in very high winds made sure of that. He picks my brain for a coat. We mull over the hassles and strengths of various puff routes, ultimately arriving at “you do know I don't buy all these jackets just because I can don't you”, and how that clashes with his desire for a “one puff for all”. Anyway, I give him a shortlist and point to a few bits, and why. He settles on the Montane Black Ice.

A couple of days later it arrives and he phones me beyond happy. He not wearing much else and he's been out in the garden a while and it “feels like” -3C. I send him up the golf course behind his house for a better test. It's much more windy there. He phones again, elated.

Fast forward a week 'till last Monday and he's still in his honeymoon bubble. He's turned up at the RV with that over a T-shirt and nothing else save for a Gore-Tex shell in his bike bag. Man does he suffer for it. He can't ride properly in it 'cos the heat is too much, and swapping out for the shell over the T just isn't enough. I lent him something and we muddled through, but that was his crash learning.

I don't know what he will come up with for this Monday. It will still be gusting wind between 30-50mph for the next week. It will be 6C and their will be intermittent drizzle every day for a while yet. I know I'll be in either a Montane Extreme Smock or Buffalo Windshirt, with a big ole puff for the punctuations. Depending on what we get up to I've a very strong hunch that we'll be devising him another shortlist for Tuesday.
 
. I know I'll be in either a Montane Extreme Smock or Buffalo Windshirt, with a big ole puff for the punctuations. Depending on what we get up to I've a very strong hunch that we'll be devising him another shortlist for Tuesday.

Do you have a preference between the Montane and Buffalo? Any real differences?

Also, what sort of temperature ranges do you find them comfortable in?

Any insight is greatly appreciated. I'm really intrigued by the concept and reviews.
 
I like this paper also: www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a215936.pdf

"Some practical advice on cold weather clothing" by B Farnworth.

"Considerable research and development has been carried out on cold weather clothing at the Defence Research Establishment Ottawa. This paper
explains, in laymens language, the practical knowledge gained in the course of this work. It deals in turn with the five elements of good winter
clothing design,' thickness, dryness, wind proofness, whole-body coverage and flexibility. It concludes with explanations of how breathable fabrics, wicking fabric and aluminized materials work and how practical they are."
 
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