- Joined
- Jun 6, 2000
- Messages
- 3,625
Some steels I have used (inc actual knife also) and general comments about them...
My real world no BS test, that gives me a repeatable test. Simple, cut up about 30 fuzz sticks from softwood branches/sticks. No more than couple cm thick. You really notice the low end steels strugle about 20 sticks in... I tape of the blades so as to keep a 2inch edge available only.
425 Modified (bucklite folder, M9 Field knife): Easy to sharpen, which is just as well considering how poorly this holds an edge. Rust resistance is very good with this steel. I have heard rumours that this steel becomes very britle at low temp. However, a Buck reprasentative confirmed that examples of M9 field blades failing invariably were the greatly inferiour Marto or Ontario blades. Just goes to show how important the heat treat is for more than edge holding! An easy steel to sharpen.
12c27 Sandvick (BM42a, Super Swede knife): As treated by BM, easy to sharpen and very very tough. Does not feel as sharp as it really is somehow. Edge holding is not great, better than 425 though. Not really an acceptable steel for a small knife edc IMHO. The Perfect steel for a Balisong though as it will invariably get dropped a lot. This steel does have a good rep with many as it does perform above 440a/6a grade steels with a good treat. Perhaps it is an easier steel to treat? Ka Bar use instead of 440a with its stainless Ka Bar fixed blades. Perhaps a good choice for a larger blade?
440a (various Gerber ez-outs, BMF and many more): Nice fine grained steel, edge holding is predictably low end, on a par with Sandvick steel. Edge chipping is noted with couple of Gerber folders (heat treat?) My Gerber BMF has shown at Rc54-55 that this is a steel that is good for the larger blade. Highly rust resistant, but also tough. Sure, edge holding is not fantastic, but in a larger blade you have a lot of edge to work on and toughness is of great value! It works nicely in my BMF.
440c (Boker applegate, Spyderco 'Q' series, various others) Very satisfying edge holding, at last a steel that does not noticably dull making fuzz sticks for a camp fire. Very tough when treated properly. A highly recommended steel from me! Above average rust resistance for carbon content in my experience.
6a or 6m (most of the CRKT range, M16 03z, commander, KISS dropoint Spyderco Pride): If anyone can tell a real user difference between this and 440a, I would be surprised! If push comes to shove, I feel edge holding is slightly lower.
8a (Browning 802, Spyderco Dragonfly, Some of the larger CRKT M16 range): A poor cousin to 440c, not as good edge holding, but more rust resistant. Apparently a good steel with a good treat. I am yet to be convinced... better that 6a or 440a though, perhaps 20% better? Not good enough to pass the fuzz stick test though! Dulls before job us done.
10a, (Spyderco Native II) much improved edge holding, easily on a par with 440c, though rather prone to rust spots and rapid pitting.
154cm/ats34 (Microtech LCC D/A , Benchmade 750, 851, Puma Cougar Gerber ez-out, Gator and many many more) :The perenial favourite! Edge holding superiour to all above by a noticable margin. Passes the fuzz stick test with aplome! Prone to rust spots if you are wearing close to skin in summer or do not wipe right away after getting wet etc. Not difficult to sharpen, but not for the average novice. I have stated in the past that I was not over impressed with this steel (lets call ATS34 and CPM154 the same for simplicity) allow me to quantify this. In my no BS test, this steel passes the test no problems, however I have been using this steel for many years and have without realising set this as my minimum edge holding benchmark in smaller blades. Thus the large performance increase over lower end steels line 440a has simply been forgotten by myself! I have now reaquanted myself with just how improved this steel is!
BG42 (Sebenza, Mnandi) Edge holding noticably better than ATS34! No rust spotting problems whatsoever. Reasons? More pure steel and a MUCH better edge setup and heat treat. This is a steel I really like, perhaps most of all at the moment. Also easier to sharpen than ATS34 and takes a razor edge better. Is this the steel or the Reeve element?
D2, (Ka Bar d2 folder, Ka Bar D2 Marine) World class edge holding, takes a razor razor edge with ease. A joke to call this even semi stainless steel. Treat as a high carbon plain steel. Bob Dozier uses this steel a lot and I can honestly see why! My blades are by Ka Bar so a custom knife aught to have vastly improved performance. I am very happy with this steel as is! IMHO a great alternative so steels like 1095 or O1 where rust resistance is not going to be an issue.
ATS55 (Spyderco Endura, Matriarch, Blue delica): Tough, takes and holds a very good edge, terrible ruster. I don't like it for this quality.
I have heard tales of how this steel is great at resisting rust and my experience with my ATS-55 Endura seemed to show now worse than ATS34 level rust resistance. My Matriarch and Blue Delica rust like a Son @*&%£!!!! The SpyderHole has finger print shaped rust marks after a couple of days use and the blade in general is amazingly prone to rust spots and pitting. The Delica was cleaned with and abrasive cleaner, wiped down with great care, polished clean and then given a double thick coating coating of Marine Tuf Cloth (twice!) then stored away in a dry, clean place in its box. Well This was done with all my blades before moving from my old address to my new address as I knew I would not get the chance to look at my collection for a few months and only had time for my current user blades. Well after 6 months I got out the blades and inspected them, 95% of them with perfect, but not the Matriarch or Delica... The Delica is badly pitted near the tip, this is the first time EVER a knife has done this with such intense levels of care given to it. My Damascus NON STAINLESS double HIGH carbon Sebenza stored in the same location also suffered not a jot of rust, my Opinel knives in 1075 had no probs either. What Gives? It comes as no surprise Spyderco are phasing this steel out slowly in favour of VG10... A much better steel in my humble opinion.
VG-10 (Spyderco Moran) Lovely fine grain, tough and resists rust well for class of steel. Holds edge at least as well as ATS34 and is a joy to sharpen. Highly recommended.
CPM 440V (Spyderco Native, Military, Starmate) Not the toughest steel in the world, though not a weak steel either. Edge holding is world class is cutting ability, but holds a razor edge quite poorly. Due to Vanadium carbide formation, this steel cuts through rougher fiberous material like a laser beam! If you wanted a steel for a straight razor, this would be a poor choice, however as a real world steel, its fantastic for pure usability. This is a knife that out cuts many other steels even when it feels dull to the finger test. Rust resistance is good. Very difficult to get a razor edge for a novice, high wear resistance you see! Not a chopping knife steel.
CPM 10V (My Doug Mondt custom 10" spearpoint heat treat by Paul Bos at Rc58) Better edge holding than any above by a huge factor, amazingly tough! I could not damage with repeated full force chops into hardwood, even my Gerber axe suffered after this test, showing edge dulling and rolling. Weakness? Whilst blade has shown no sign of corrosion, joint between guard and tang is highly prone to rust, I think this is the leather though.... Very easy to sharpen and has a nice finish. Highly recommended, though treat as a carbon steel.
M2 (BM710, nimravious, afck) Carbon steel, prone to rust even with BT2 coating... Incredibly tough, will roll out but never seen it chip! Even an idiot can get this steel razor sharp. Holds an edge about as well as 440c steel. Very nice!
1095 (marine blades from Ka Bar and Ontario). Tough, holds a good edge, takes a highly razor edge. I like this steel when I am not asked to pay mega bucks for it! IMHO the short Ka Bar makes a great field knife! I am considering one or perhaps the Warthog?
1075 (Opinel range)As above but lesser edge holding. Prone to rust as all carbon steels are, edge holding better than 440a (for example).
Devin Thomas Double High Carbon Damascus (15N20 and L6 bandsaw steel) (Small Wood Regular Sebenza) This was my first experience with Damask steel. My initial impression was somewhat tempered by the fact I was expecting a perfect geometric pattern, which this knife did not have... You see mine is the spirograph black and white high contrast and there are imperfections in the pattern, slight but true. I then realised just how difficult it must be to get it as good as it is and it is nearly perfect! No this is not a machine lasered pattern but the work of many hours labour. When you look at the spine of the blade with the lovely patterns in the steel, the way you can hold the edge to the light just so and see clearly the different steels welded together from one to the other, its simply breathtaking stuff. You can also 'feel' the join in the steels as one transitions to the other. Cutting performance of this steel is simply superb. Unlike some I am very happy to use expensive knives as I am nearly 30 and realise my knife collection will outlive me by a very long time. I am not a knife abuser, but do like to carry a quality item. I used this knife for a solid week in work, cutting up cardboard boxes etc and it performed amazingly well. In fact this knife has a saw like quality, it eats fiberous materials even better than CPM 440V and the edge holding is even better! I was somewhat unlucky as a coin got at the edge and chipped it out slightly (a failing of the Sebenza is its open backed design encourages coins). Some passes with a steel and some work with the Sharpmaker and its barely visable now. Over time this will sharpen out. This is a carbon steel so care must be taken to avoid rust, esp considering the care that has gone into the etching. No problems at all as of yet. I simply used the RIG from Chris Reeve (Rust Inhibiting Grease) once a month (as a top up greasing to condition the steel!) and Marine Tuf Cloth Daily when I got home. Note Tuf Cloth won't work if a blade has oil or grease on it. You must clean this away first.
Many of the Damask options offered are a combo of a steel like 1084 and simple nickle. Performance in such blades would be less than a modern supersteel in edge holding terms and poor indeed if you were cutting on the nickle part of the mix. This is paraphrased from comments by the lovely Anne Reeve.
Conclusions? Any high carbon/high carbon stainless with a good heat treat is a good choice IMHO. Avoid the medium carbon steels at all cost unless there is a specific requirement. For example 440a or 6a makes a good steel for a neck knife due to desire for rust resistance. For a cutting machine the better stainless and carbon steels like ATS34 or 1095 are a very good choice. Bare in mind some high element stainless steels can be frightning to sharpen in the field if you don't have the gear and nouse... A carbon steel is always easier to sharpen but harder to maintain a rust free finish. Never assume a stainless knife is rust proof, its not!
The choice of steel is important, but the maker and heat treat even more so. Mass production knives with a factory treat are constantly outperformed by my high end production knives and customs. My Microtech, Masters of Defence and Chris Reeve blades kill many of my lesser mark blades of the same or similar steels time after time. My custom blades are even better.
Just a few thoughts... ;-)
Blade coatings, finishes.
GBF, Glass Beaded Finish. Also called a high tech low reflection 'grey' finish. AKA rust magnet. The glass bead effect is done by passing the blade through an abrasive medium which scratches the blade to a very fine standard in many directions at once. This creates vallys and peaks on a microscopic level on the surface of the blade. This gives a nice even grey finish, but the peaks and vallys trap moisture and sing loudly for rust! I gave my Gerber BMF blade a hand rubbed satin finish as even 440a steel was rusting thanks to this dumb finish. Now not a single problem. Why is it used? Its a cheap finish and it does look kinda cool. That 'cool' factor is subjective though.
Satin finish. This is a nice reflective finish that... Well look up what satin polihed means! This is a nice finish which shows scratches and blemishes quite readilly but is attractive and does not attract rust.
Mirror finish, as above but more so.
Stonewash. Somewhat like a glass bead, but using a much larger abrasive medium so the scratch pattern is highly visable. This gives a finish that does not look rubish, yet hides user marks and scratches and does not attract rust like GBF. This is a highly recommended finish for a stainless steel blade where it is likely to get a lot of use/abuse! When done properly it is a very attractive finish IMHO.
Parkerised finish, now my level of knoledge here is somewhat suspect, so I am talking about the baked on black finish on my Marine Ka Bar here. It is a treatemnt often used to hide steel imperfections and offer genuine rust resistance. Offers no protection once worn though and looks incredibly ugly once scratched.
Teflon coatings such as BT2 by Benchmade. A more advanced version of above, can be coloured but often black. Offers some protection even when rubbed away. Ugly as sin when marked. Simply take the knife and cut up tome cardboard. The knife will not be as homely as a bulldog chewing on a wasp! For the user knife where you don't care what others think! A good choice for high carbon non stainless steels or steels like D2.
With insperation provided by Joe T! Thanks!
Enough from me for today! Perhaps my experence with lubes and rust inhibitors next?
My real world no BS test, that gives me a repeatable test. Simple, cut up about 30 fuzz sticks from softwood branches/sticks. No more than couple cm thick. You really notice the low end steels strugle about 20 sticks in... I tape of the blades so as to keep a 2inch edge available only.
425 Modified (bucklite folder, M9 Field knife): Easy to sharpen, which is just as well considering how poorly this holds an edge. Rust resistance is very good with this steel. I have heard rumours that this steel becomes very britle at low temp. However, a Buck reprasentative confirmed that examples of M9 field blades failing invariably were the greatly inferiour Marto or Ontario blades. Just goes to show how important the heat treat is for more than edge holding! An easy steel to sharpen.
12c27 Sandvick (BM42a, Super Swede knife): As treated by BM, easy to sharpen and very very tough. Does not feel as sharp as it really is somehow. Edge holding is not great, better than 425 though. Not really an acceptable steel for a small knife edc IMHO. The Perfect steel for a Balisong though as it will invariably get dropped a lot. This steel does have a good rep with many as it does perform above 440a/6a grade steels with a good treat. Perhaps it is an easier steel to treat? Ka Bar use instead of 440a with its stainless Ka Bar fixed blades. Perhaps a good choice for a larger blade?
440a (various Gerber ez-outs, BMF and many more): Nice fine grained steel, edge holding is predictably low end, on a par with Sandvick steel. Edge chipping is noted with couple of Gerber folders (heat treat?) My Gerber BMF has shown at Rc54-55 that this is a steel that is good for the larger blade. Highly rust resistant, but also tough. Sure, edge holding is not fantastic, but in a larger blade you have a lot of edge to work on and toughness is of great value! It works nicely in my BMF.
440c (Boker applegate, Spyderco 'Q' series, various others) Very satisfying edge holding, at last a steel that does not noticably dull making fuzz sticks for a camp fire. Very tough when treated properly. A highly recommended steel from me! Above average rust resistance for carbon content in my experience.
6a or 6m (most of the CRKT range, M16 03z, commander, KISS dropoint Spyderco Pride): If anyone can tell a real user difference between this and 440a, I would be surprised! If push comes to shove, I feel edge holding is slightly lower.
8a (Browning 802, Spyderco Dragonfly, Some of the larger CRKT M16 range): A poor cousin to 440c, not as good edge holding, but more rust resistant. Apparently a good steel with a good treat. I am yet to be convinced... better that 6a or 440a though, perhaps 20% better? Not good enough to pass the fuzz stick test though! Dulls before job us done.
10a, (Spyderco Native II) much improved edge holding, easily on a par with 440c, though rather prone to rust spots and rapid pitting.
154cm/ats34 (Microtech LCC D/A , Benchmade 750, 851, Puma Cougar Gerber ez-out, Gator and many many more) :The perenial favourite! Edge holding superiour to all above by a noticable margin. Passes the fuzz stick test with aplome! Prone to rust spots if you are wearing close to skin in summer or do not wipe right away after getting wet etc. Not difficult to sharpen, but not for the average novice. I have stated in the past that I was not over impressed with this steel (lets call ATS34 and CPM154 the same for simplicity) allow me to quantify this. In my no BS test, this steel passes the test no problems, however I have been using this steel for many years and have without realising set this as my minimum edge holding benchmark in smaller blades. Thus the large performance increase over lower end steels line 440a has simply been forgotten by myself! I have now reaquanted myself with just how improved this steel is!
BG42 (Sebenza, Mnandi) Edge holding noticably better than ATS34! No rust spotting problems whatsoever. Reasons? More pure steel and a MUCH better edge setup and heat treat. This is a steel I really like, perhaps most of all at the moment. Also easier to sharpen than ATS34 and takes a razor edge better. Is this the steel or the Reeve element?
D2, (Ka Bar d2 folder, Ka Bar D2 Marine) World class edge holding, takes a razor razor edge with ease. A joke to call this even semi stainless steel. Treat as a high carbon plain steel. Bob Dozier uses this steel a lot and I can honestly see why! My blades are by Ka Bar so a custom knife aught to have vastly improved performance. I am very happy with this steel as is! IMHO a great alternative so steels like 1095 or O1 where rust resistance is not going to be an issue.
ATS55 (Spyderco Endura, Matriarch, Blue delica): Tough, takes and holds a very good edge, terrible ruster. I don't like it for this quality.
I have heard tales of how this steel is great at resisting rust and my experience with my ATS-55 Endura seemed to show now worse than ATS34 level rust resistance. My Matriarch and Blue Delica rust like a Son @*&%£!!!! The SpyderHole has finger print shaped rust marks after a couple of days use and the blade in general is amazingly prone to rust spots and pitting. The Delica was cleaned with and abrasive cleaner, wiped down with great care, polished clean and then given a double thick coating coating of Marine Tuf Cloth (twice!) then stored away in a dry, clean place in its box. Well This was done with all my blades before moving from my old address to my new address as I knew I would not get the chance to look at my collection for a few months and only had time for my current user blades. Well after 6 months I got out the blades and inspected them, 95% of them with perfect, but not the Matriarch or Delica... The Delica is badly pitted near the tip, this is the first time EVER a knife has done this with such intense levels of care given to it. My Damascus NON STAINLESS double HIGH carbon Sebenza stored in the same location also suffered not a jot of rust, my Opinel knives in 1075 had no probs either. What Gives? It comes as no surprise Spyderco are phasing this steel out slowly in favour of VG10... A much better steel in my humble opinion.
VG-10 (Spyderco Moran) Lovely fine grain, tough and resists rust well for class of steel. Holds edge at least as well as ATS34 and is a joy to sharpen. Highly recommended.
CPM 440V (Spyderco Native, Military, Starmate) Not the toughest steel in the world, though not a weak steel either. Edge holding is world class is cutting ability, but holds a razor edge quite poorly. Due to Vanadium carbide formation, this steel cuts through rougher fiberous material like a laser beam! If you wanted a steel for a straight razor, this would be a poor choice, however as a real world steel, its fantastic for pure usability. This is a knife that out cuts many other steels even when it feels dull to the finger test. Rust resistance is good. Very difficult to get a razor edge for a novice, high wear resistance you see! Not a chopping knife steel.
CPM 10V (My Doug Mondt custom 10" spearpoint heat treat by Paul Bos at Rc58) Better edge holding than any above by a huge factor, amazingly tough! I could not damage with repeated full force chops into hardwood, even my Gerber axe suffered after this test, showing edge dulling and rolling. Weakness? Whilst blade has shown no sign of corrosion, joint between guard and tang is highly prone to rust, I think this is the leather though.... Very easy to sharpen and has a nice finish. Highly recommended, though treat as a carbon steel.
M2 (BM710, nimravious, afck) Carbon steel, prone to rust even with BT2 coating... Incredibly tough, will roll out but never seen it chip! Even an idiot can get this steel razor sharp. Holds an edge about as well as 440c steel. Very nice!
1095 (marine blades from Ka Bar and Ontario). Tough, holds a good edge, takes a highly razor edge. I like this steel when I am not asked to pay mega bucks for it! IMHO the short Ka Bar makes a great field knife! I am considering one or perhaps the Warthog?
1075 (Opinel range)As above but lesser edge holding. Prone to rust as all carbon steels are, edge holding better than 440a (for example).
Devin Thomas Double High Carbon Damascus (15N20 and L6 bandsaw steel) (Small Wood Regular Sebenza) This was my first experience with Damask steel. My initial impression was somewhat tempered by the fact I was expecting a perfect geometric pattern, which this knife did not have... You see mine is the spirograph black and white high contrast and there are imperfections in the pattern, slight but true. I then realised just how difficult it must be to get it as good as it is and it is nearly perfect! No this is not a machine lasered pattern but the work of many hours labour. When you look at the spine of the blade with the lovely patterns in the steel, the way you can hold the edge to the light just so and see clearly the different steels welded together from one to the other, its simply breathtaking stuff. You can also 'feel' the join in the steels as one transitions to the other. Cutting performance of this steel is simply superb. Unlike some I am very happy to use expensive knives as I am nearly 30 and realise my knife collection will outlive me by a very long time. I am not a knife abuser, but do like to carry a quality item. I used this knife for a solid week in work, cutting up cardboard boxes etc and it performed amazingly well. In fact this knife has a saw like quality, it eats fiberous materials even better than CPM 440V and the edge holding is even better! I was somewhat unlucky as a coin got at the edge and chipped it out slightly (a failing of the Sebenza is its open backed design encourages coins). Some passes with a steel and some work with the Sharpmaker and its barely visable now. Over time this will sharpen out. This is a carbon steel so care must be taken to avoid rust, esp considering the care that has gone into the etching. No problems at all as of yet. I simply used the RIG from Chris Reeve (Rust Inhibiting Grease) once a month (as a top up greasing to condition the steel!) and Marine Tuf Cloth Daily when I got home. Note Tuf Cloth won't work if a blade has oil or grease on it. You must clean this away first.
Many of the Damask options offered are a combo of a steel like 1084 and simple nickle. Performance in such blades would be less than a modern supersteel in edge holding terms and poor indeed if you were cutting on the nickle part of the mix. This is paraphrased from comments by the lovely Anne Reeve.
Conclusions? Any high carbon/high carbon stainless with a good heat treat is a good choice IMHO. Avoid the medium carbon steels at all cost unless there is a specific requirement. For example 440a or 6a makes a good steel for a neck knife due to desire for rust resistance. For a cutting machine the better stainless and carbon steels like ATS34 or 1095 are a very good choice. Bare in mind some high element stainless steels can be frightning to sharpen in the field if you don't have the gear and nouse... A carbon steel is always easier to sharpen but harder to maintain a rust free finish. Never assume a stainless knife is rust proof, its not!
The choice of steel is important, but the maker and heat treat even more so. Mass production knives with a factory treat are constantly outperformed by my high end production knives and customs. My Microtech, Masters of Defence and Chris Reeve blades kill many of my lesser mark blades of the same or similar steels time after time. My custom blades are even better.
Just a few thoughts... ;-)
Blade coatings, finishes.
GBF, Glass Beaded Finish. Also called a high tech low reflection 'grey' finish. AKA rust magnet. The glass bead effect is done by passing the blade through an abrasive medium which scratches the blade to a very fine standard in many directions at once. This creates vallys and peaks on a microscopic level on the surface of the blade. This gives a nice even grey finish, but the peaks and vallys trap moisture and sing loudly for rust! I gave my Gerber BMF blade a hand rubbed satin finish as even 440a steel was rusting thanks to this dumb finish. Now not a single problem. Why is it used? Its a cheap finish and it does look kinda cool. That 'cool' factor is subjective though.
Satin finish. This is a nice reflective finish that... Well look up what satin polihed means! This is a nice finish which shows scratches and blemishes quite readilly but is attractive and does not attract rust.
Mirror finish, as above but more so.
Stonewash. Somewhat like a glass bead, but using a much larger abrasive medium so the scratch pattern is highly visable. This gives a finish that does not look rubish, yet hides user marks and scratches and does not attract rust like GBF. This is a highly recommended finish for a stainless steel blade where it is likely to get a lot of use/abuse! When done properly it is a very attractive finish IMHO.
Parkerised finish, now my level of knoledge here is somewhat suspect, so I am talking about the baked on black finish on my Marine Ka Bar here. It is a treatemnt often used to hide steel imperfections and offer genuine rust resistance. Offers no protection once worn though and looks incredibly ugly once scratched.
Teflon coatings such as BT2 by Benchmade. A more advanced version of above, can be coloured but often black. Offers some protection even when rubbed away. Ugly as sin when marked. Simply take the knife and cut up tome cardboard. The knife will not be as homely as a bulldog chewing on a wasp! For the user knife where you don't care what others think! A good choice for high carbon non stainless steels or steels like D2.
With insperation provided by Joe T! Thanks!
Enough from me for today! Perhaps my experence with lubes and rust inhibitors next?
You have a lot more patience than I have.