A totally unscientific, unfair, biased test. BUT...

Full Tang Clan · Aug 2, 2000

I was comparing some of my newer knives to see how well they were factory sharpened.

Now, it is certainly unscientific as I ran the curved part of the blade (spearpoint type in all cases) along the surface of the newsprint section of a T.V. Guide to see how deeply it would penetrate. I used a firm, but not overbearing, pressure.

Obviously, I couldn't guarantee putting the same pressure on each knife, each time. However, I did the test several times and they were consistently the same.

All the knives are in NEW to MINT condition and have been hardly, if ever, used. Certainly not for any hard cutting.

From worst to best:

4. Benchmade 710 Axis: I've heard on various threads about how inconsistent BM's manufacturing is. My 710 would have trouble cutting soft margarine in a heatwave. Made in the U.S.A. Conclusion - Shame on Benchmade. Who do you have doing quality control? Pot smokin' monkeys?

3. Gerber Covert. Made in the U.S.A. Conclusion - At least it did better than the 710, but you dare have an American flag proudly waving on the box?

2. CRKT Sampson's KISS - This inexpensive single-edged little AUS-6 knife put the higher priced ATS-34 blades to shame. Made in Taiwan. Conclusion - If I praise CRKT anymore in these threads, people are going to think I'm getting a "kickback". Oh what the heck...CRKT rocks!

1. SOG Magnadot - SURPRISE! This lockback is two years old (although never really used), 440A steel, and Zytel handled. It still has its factory edge. Made in Seki, Japan. Conclusion - it is a vicious cutter.

Has anyone had similar results where price does not reflect how well the finished product is off the assembly line?

NOTE: I know many people will say, "Hey, I own that knife and mine's great..." Please save it. As I stated that these tests are unscientific and may not be representative of the population.

But if this test does show one thing, it is that some companies need to learn the concept of QUALITY CONTROL.

db · Aug 3, 2000

Is out of the box sharpness really a good judge of QC for a factory knife?

Chang · Aug 3, 2000

Full Tang Clan, Benchmade out of the box sharpness is pretty bad. For some reason, it can shave hair, but is a poor performer. I suggest they follow Buck Knives' Edge 2000 type of edges or the Microtech edges, both are good. The Buck Knives' Edge 2000 type of edge is much more toothy, and better suited for different types of cutting where push cuts aren't really your main movement.

While BM's QC is spotty at best, I would say that sharpness test isn't a good test of their QC. After all, almost all their blades are consistently dull feeling. Sharpness is a strange thing. My BM's can shave well, but cannot cut well. Strange isn't it? Whatever it is, they have chosen to make their edges like that, and that is their choice. Not really a QC issue however.

CRKT's are an excellent value. I've held and owned a good deal of them now, but have kept none so far because I'm not always looking for value, I'm looking for high-end production items. Of course, if they made a G-10 handled Point Guard with 8A or better blades, then I would definately keep that. Of course I miss my Point Guard dearly now, and I feel like I need another one despite it's lower end materials.

Excuse my typos, it is almost 2AM here, and I'm really sleepy. Take care.

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Chang the Asian Janitorial Apparatus

Full Tang Clan · Aug 3, 2000

RE: "Is out of the box sharpness really a good judge of QC for a factory knife?"

You read my disclaimer title, yes? In addition, I noted that my personal test is not scientific. I did not do random sampling, or set hypotheses, variance tests, etc. It's more of an observation.

However, why shouldn't a knife straight out of a box be reflective of QC? If there is one rotten (or good) apple, there could be others.

This begs the question: Is it just one rotten apple, or reflective of the whole bunch?

sing · Aug 3, 2000

FTC,

What you may actually be testing is the thickness of the edge bevel. This affects the depth and ease of the cut. I find BM bevels to be thicker than most.

IF you cut repeatedly, you may find the CRKT falling back because the AUS6 can't hold an edge as well.

sing

AKTI #A000356

Cliff Stamp · Aug 3, 2000

Not to speak for Db, but it seemed to me that he was not speaking of your method as being flawed, just questioning the value of rating QC by the particlar aspect you were looking at "NIB sharpness" .

As Sing noted, for the type of shallow cutting you were doing the edge thickness is critical. BM could constantly grind the same bevels, all highly polished - which would be good QC - but yet all of them would cut poorly.

The low NIB cutting ability yet good sharpness is a constant comment made about BM knives. You might want to make a post on the BM form and see if you can get a reply from the Benchmade people.

-Cliff

db · Aug 3, 2000

Cliff bingo, that is what i ment.

Joe Talmadge · Aug 4, 2000

Full Tang -- Thanks for the test!

4. Benchmade 710 Axis: I've heard on various threads about how inconsistent BM's manufacturing is.

When it comes to their edges, Benchmade is quite consistent. They consistently put out their knives with very thick edges, that perform badly on shallow cutting tests such as this.

I think NIB sharpness is a perfectly reasonable thing to complain about. It does not significantly change my purchase choices, because the edge is one thing that is modifiable by the user. However, in the case of Benchmade, I might do some grumbling about how much time I end up spending at the sharpener.

Joe

Samurai6 · Aug 3, 2000

I don't think it is very useful to compare "out of the box" sharpness between knives. If you don't like the edge on your knife, put the edge you like on there. The point of doing knife comparisons is to get information for making buying decisions. It would not be sensible to pass on a knife with better design, manufacturing quality, and materials because an inferior one came with a better factory edge. So what use is this information?

You are really comparing the sharpening jobs done by unknown individuals who probably don't even sharpen two knives the same themselves. It's like making a new car buying decision based on the tires.

[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 08-03-2000).]

Full Tang Clan · Aug 4, 2000

My complaint about BM -- and I know I'm not alone on this -- is that you should EXPECT a knife at that price to straight cut better than your typical knife bought from a hardware store. It's a matter of GETTING WHAT YOU PAID FOR. In this case, you don't.

I know you can always re-sharpen your knife to your own specs. However, that's like buying a new $30 000 Ducati motorcycle (not that I own one) that's not tuned properly and the sales guy saying, "No sweat. You can tune it to your own specifications at home."

rdangerer · Aug 5, 2000

Originally posted by Steve Harvey:
I don't think it is very useful to compare "out of the box" sharpness between knives. If you don't like the edge on your knife, put the edge you like on there. The point of doing knife comparisons is to get information for making buying decisions. It would not be sensible to pass on a knife with better design, manufacturing quality, and materials because an inferior one came with a better factory edge. So what use is this information?
[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 08-03-2000).]

Absolutely my position as well. To wit:

I recently acquired a Kit Carson Model 4, large 4" drop point, 420V at Rc58 per Kit.

The knife came to me with about a 30 degree final edge profile. It was fairly sharp, uniformly sharpened, but nothing to brag about.

Took me an hour with diamond stones to reprofile the whole thing to 25 degrees... lot's of elbow grease. I understand about 420V and vanadium carbides now.

Fit and finish and action on this knife are just great... among the best quality working folders available today.

If I rated the QC of this knife package on the edge that Kit chose to put on the knife, it would have finished low in a derby to compare "out of the box sharpness vs. my personal likes".

That makes zero sense, and would be pure folly and myopia.

It's a great folder for it's intended purpose. It now sports an edge that I personally like, 25 degrees, shaving sharp AND strong, and a bit toothy from diamond. But that edge is my own personal preference and the next guy might want 20 degrees polished.

But the knife itself is a model of high quality, precision fit and finish. And the QC, the Quality Control of the overall package, is excellent.

Cold Steel folders come out of the box just super sharp, so do Spyderco's. This means little. To point: I will probably never own a Cold Steel folder, but I own many Spyderco's.

I have always been stumped as to contentious, energetic threads on "Who puts the sharpest edges on folders, out of the box." This is of passing interest.

Must more interesting is being able to learn to put an edge to your liking on a knife. Or learning of new sharpening equipment that does a good job for a particular niche. Or learning about who does the most consistent or best job of heat treating... the real key.

Now that I've been a jerk, it's time for bed.

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rdangerer@home.com

rdangerer · Aug 5, 2000

Originally posted by Full Tang Clan:
My complaint about BM -- and I know I'm not alone on this -- is that you should EXPECT a knife at that price to straight cut better than your typical knife bought from a hardware store. It's a matter of GETTING WHAT YOU PAID FOR. In this case, you don't.

I know you can always re-sharpen your knife to your own specs. However, that's like buying a new $30 000 Ducati motorcycle (not that I own one) that's not tuned properly and the sales guy saying, "No sweat. You can tune it to your own specifications at home."

I care a LOT more about BM's heat treat than on their sharpening techniques. I can change the sharpness... I can't change the heat treat. I've been content with BM's ATS-34 heat treat so far. I anxiously await their adoption of 420V.

The Ducati analogy is only close... a mis-tuned Ducati is like a liner lock that doesn't lock tightly, or is misaligned, or only 1/2 behind the tang... or scales/bolsters don't quite fit right. Or grind is not symmetrical... or ... or...

A Ducati that came with tires you didn't like or that didn't meet your needs would be a better analogy to a knife with an edge you didn't like.

Perspective. Something to keep things in ...

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rdangerer@home.com

[This message has been edited by rdangerer (edited 08-05-2000).]

akula57 · Aug 5, 2000

I agree with the thread author. The knife should be perfectly sharpened. (If not, who knows what other faults it has.) Also, I love BM but think they "cook" their ATS a bit too much.

Full Tang Clan · Aug 5, 2000

Thanks Akula57. At least you understand what I'm bitching about. I'm not sure about the others here...

Some of these people here are excusing Benchmade's poor workmanship by saying, "Who cares, since I can re-sharpen it better than any factory, anyway..."

Well that's fine for you guys. But what about the rest of us who don't have the equipment, nor expertise, nor want to bother with having to re-sharpen the knife? Why should we have to invest in additional equipment, or pay a knifesmith to fix BM's problems?

It's about giving the customer a decent product to begin with. PERIOD. No excuses. No questions asked.

Why don't you explain the "you can re-sharpen your knife theory" to the many dissatisfied knife enthusiasts who are complaining at the General forum under the thread: Trusting Benchmade to Get It Right This Time: Lifesharp

As for the Ducati analogy. Let's not get patronizing about it. You know what I mean!

Full Tang Clan · Aug 5, 2000

Oh yeah. I forgot to leave a quote to consider. It certainly applies to some of you here:

"You just don't get it!" -- Judge Sheinlen of PEOPLE'S COURT

e_utopia · Aug 5, 2000

The problem, I think, is that what is a good edge to you is not necessarily a good edge to someone else. Benchmade sharpens to a large angle. This doesn't cut paper and cardboard as easily, but is more resistant to damage, and will stay sharp longer. For the vast majority of their customers, that is the priority, not ease of cutting paper and cardboard. To use your Ducati analogy, it's like complaining because the bike isn't how you want it, even though the way you want it is different from the way the majority of Ducati's customers want it. Benchmade is a nusiness, and they cannot afford to sharpen their knives the way only a few of their customers prefer, since the majority will be less satisfied with the edge chipping and quicker dulling that results.

--JB

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e_utopia@hotmail.com

Full Tang Clan · Aug 5, 2000

Thanks for your opinions. However, may I add a few rebuttals?

A friend of mine sums up life by saying, "Everything is relative..." meaning it's all how you look at it. Well, not everything.

I don't think my opinion is as subjective, or atypical as you suggest. Please go to the aforementioned General Discussion thread regarding BM's LIFESHARP. There are many people there who are dissatisfied with the factory sharpening job, and many people think it's a QC problem. Not just me.

RE: PAPER CUTTING TEST. If it can't cut a piece of paper, or shave a piece of hair off my arm, do you think it can do any better with cardboard, leather, tomato...this is sounding like a Ginsu test!

RE: Your Ducati analogy. No, I wouldn't expect it to be to my personal specs. The thing is if Ducati tuned motorcycles like Benchmade sharpened knives, it couldn't pass an emissions test conducted by Helen Keller!

Cliff Stamp · Aug 6, 2000

Concerning popular opinion on these forums being in your favor, I would assume that it would be. However I don't think that in general the forums represent the buying public well. If Benchmade lowered the edge angles to about 15-20 degrees then a lot of people who post here would be very pleased. However the problem is that the buying public at large as e_utopia mentioned may see more failures due to edge chipping.

If you really want to see something done then you are going to have to go to the source. I don't go into the Benchmade forum often but when I do it seems that the majority of posts are very positive. It does not seem to be filled with people complaining about the edge thickness.

-Cliff

[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 08-06-2000).]

Full Tang Clan · Aug 6, 2000

Thanks for the reply, Cliff. Frankly, I'm getting a little tired of this thread as I don't think I'm getting my point across. Probably my fault.

In addition, I'm running out of Ducati analogies!

Don't get me wrong. I like the BM 710. I repeat - I LIKE THE 710. I think it's a good knife except...This is why it bothers me that it feels as if I received a product which hasn't been quite finished on the assembly lines yet. You know?

Let me touch on a few points you mentioned. I'm going to talk in business lingo since the all-mighty dollar is the bottom line. I just love a good debate!

:

1. "Concerning popular opinion on these forums being in your favor, I would assume that it would be." - I'm not playing MY GANG IS BIGGER THAN YOUR GANG. However, the person who posted several threads above almost implies that I'm being too particular and demanding about BM's factory sharpening. No sir. I'm not alone on this.

2. "However I don't think that in general the forums represent the buying public well."
At no point did I say I represent the majority. I merely represent a particular MARKET SEGMENT.

3. "If Benchmade lowered the edge angles to about 15-20 degrees then a lot of people who post here would be very pleased. However the problem is that the buying public at large as e_utopia mentioned may see more failures due to edge chipping." - Once again, I represent that MARKET SEGMENT which just wants your standard 20 degree edge (ala
SOG, CRKT, etc.) Besides, it still doesn't address the problem of BM's uneven bevels.

4. "If you really want to see something done then you are going to have to go to the source." -
i. Some people already have,
ii. I'm hoping BM looks at these forums,
iii. negative word-of-mouth = declining sales for BM = BM saying what are we doing wrong? In macroeconomics, it's called the consumer's dollar vote.

5. "...It seems that the majority of posts [at Benchmade's forum] are very positive. It does not seem to be filled with people complaining about the edge thickness." - That's not statistically representative either Cliff. Just like most Gore Democratic conventions aren't going to attract a lot of NRA supporters.

Fact is that I am a Benchmade consumer and I have a right to express my dissatisfaction. I have a right to have reasonable expectations such as a $100+ piece of cutlery to be able to cut...

Oh forget it! I'll just wait for the next guy to tell me to stop complaining and re-sharpen it to my own specs

.

P.S. I LIKE THE 710...blah, blah, blah!

Cliff Stamp · Aug 6, 2000

Full Tang Clan:

Once again, I represent that MARKET SEGMENT which just wants your standard 20 degree edge (ala SOG, CRKT, etc.) Besides, it still doesn't address the problem of BM's uneven bevels.

It is true there is no excuse for uneven grinds, however as for the thinner bevels. Benchmade does have a reputation for having brittle ATS-34. I have seen this myself and have had chips and tips cracked under very little force.

What Benchmade would have to consider is that would making the bevels thinner and thus pleasing one particular group be of more benefit than the likely problems it could have with others. It is not a simple win-win situation.

[Benchmade's forum]

That's not statistically representative either Cliff.

Definately not. Most closed subject forums tend to be all positive - however this does give a false impression. If the overwhelming opinion on the BM support is positive how do you think that will effect BM - regardless of how sound it is to use such information.

Fact is that I am a Benchmade consumer and I have a right to express my dissatisfaction. I have a right to have reasonable expectations such as a $100+ piece of cutlery to be able to cut...

No argument at all, there is no excuse for a poor edge, it is far easier than the other aspects of making the blade and it just indicates a lack or commitment or poor QC.

-Cliff