Are there any significant DRAWBACKS to TALONITE?

peacefuljeffrey

peacefuljeffrey

Joined
Feb 24, 2001
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Before I go rushing out to buy a knife made of Talonite because I'm so enamored with the fact that it will never rust on me,

are there any known drawbacks to this material?

I know that some aspects of titanium are debatable, regarding hardness and edge retention. Is there a similar issue with Talonite? What is its typical hardness? I'm of course comparing it with various stainless steels of between 55 and maybe 60 or 62rc.

Is Talonite just all things to all people, or is there something that really is traded for the corrosion resistance?

---Jeffrey
 
It may be hard but not sharp. It was disscussed here already - you may search the forum. I heard that you can not cut the wood - not too sharp, but can cut glass because of carbid structure kind of saw it.
Now there is a new super material to be diamagnetic and rustresistant - liquid metal. Harder then titanium and sharper then talonite. Saw it on BAKCA show, but do not have much info - it is some kind of titanium and does not have crystal structure but kind of amorphous like water, so they call it liquid.
Thanks, Vassili.
 
Talonite and its first cousin Stellite 6K are aggressive cutting blades and hold an edge for a long time. The microcrystal structure of the alloy give it a naturally toothy edge that allow it to cut well. It is not a chopper so should not be considered for a bowie knife design but in a folder is an excellent choice.

I regularly etch bolsters pinned in place on stellite blades in full strength muriatic acid and the blade is totally unaffected, I have never been able to do this with other metals.
 
The knife will cost more, but you'll probably like it's benefits and soon forget the cost.
 
Could anyone name a common steel to which Talonite's edge retention would be similiar? Thanks.
 
Originally posted by nozh2002
Now there is a new super material to be diamagnetic and rustresistant - liquid metal. Harder then titanium and sharper then talonite. Saw it on BAKCA show, but do not have much info - it is some kind of titanium and does not have crystal structure but kind of amorphous like water, so they call it liquid.
Click to expand...
Here's a thread on it: Liquid Metal is here! well at least some prototypes
 
I have been told that Talonite is a good slicer but somewhat fragile, and it can chip or break if subjected to impacts, so, on a knife you will not abuse, i guess it can be a very good performer, however, if you abuse or work your knives hard, Talonite might not be a good choice. For example, a Strider AR wouldnt be good in Talonite... :)
 
Originally posted by Murnax
Could anyone name a common steel to which Talonite's edge retention would be similiar? Thanks.
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Talonite has a lot of carbides, so it is very resistant to abrasive wear but Talonite edges can roll when used for things like wood carving (low abrasion but a lot side ways pressure on the edge) because of Talonite’s low HRC. Talonite would do better on abrasive materials that do not put as much side pressure on the edge, such as cardboard.

I would equate Talonite most closely with S60V (440V) as both have a lot of carbides, but S60V is generally heat treated about 10 Rc harder than Talonite (mid to upper 50’s HRC for S60V vs. mid to upper 40’s for Talonite). I haven’t seen any CATRA testing results comparing S60V/440V to Talonite, but I would guess that they would be comparable.




- Frank



BTW, Here’s some excellent links to Talonite info on Marion David Poff’s site -

http://www.geocities.com/mdpoff/talonite.html
 
The actual name of Talonite is Stellite 6BH. This is the same material as Stellite 6B except that it is hot rolled and age hardened for maximum hardness. The maximum Rockwell hardness of Talonite is probably the upper 40s. It is more ductile than Stellite 6K because it has a lower carbon content.

Here is a great test by Cliff Stamp comparing a Talonite Allan Bladde Meuk to knives that use other blade materials.

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/MEUK_talonite.html
 
There is nothing wrong with ATS-34, but Talonite will not corrode when used in salt water or with highlt corrosive chemicals that would be a problem for ATS-34.
 
Originally posted by peacefuljeffrey
... Talonite? What is its typical hardness? I'm of course comparing it with various stainless steels of between 55 and maybe 60 or 62rc. Is Talonite just all things to all people, or is there something that really is traded for the corrosion resistance?
Click to expand...

I thought Frank K's post echoed about what I would have posted... so I'll post something else.

Short answer: I think the trade for corrosion and abrasion resistance is high cost and softness, which means the edge will roll more readily than a regular martensitic steel at a higher hardness.

Keith, I think Stellite is a trade name... and I think it belongs to Deloro Stellite. Problem is, there is a company called Haynes Stellite also (famous for Hastelloy alloys)... I suspect they were related waaay back and split off or something.

http://www.stellite.com/en/default.asp?s=42
http://www.haynesintl.com/Historypage/History.htm

I believe Talonite is made by another vendor, Carbide Processors (Tom Walz). I thought the deal was that Walz was more willing to produce the product in the sizes/thicknesses/flatness that the knife makers wanted. Whereas Deloro Stellite is into big volumes and the industrial marketplace, and so was overpriced compared to what Walz was willing to do for knifemakers.

I think it is true to say that Talonite has the same alloy composition as Stellite 6BH. There is a Stellite 6K that has more carbon, is a bit harder. I'm sure a diligent search of these forums would yield some more facts.

Here's a Bob Allman thread about Talonite. I found it with Google, and low, it's on these forums... I'd never seen it... pretty interesting:

http://www.bladeforums.com/magazine/secure/jan/talonite.shtml

Anyway, Talonite is somewhat soft, I've read Rc42-46, and I've seen Simonich post he's seen Rc49 on his Rockwell tester. In any case, regular martensitic steels don't make much of a knife blade unless they can be hardened and tempered (for stress relief and increase in toughness) to hit at least Rc55. Wayne Goddard has said Rc52 martensitic steels will cut rope once or twice. Barely a blade.

However, Talonite and Stellite are not steels, and they behave a bit differently than martensitic steels. Kinda defy that "Rc52 minimum" rule for martensitics.

Talonite is extremely abrasion resistant and corrosion resistant. Edges tend to roll easily compared with say an identically ground steel knife at Rc60. But Talonite is also stropped back upright very easily. I find Talonite and Stellite quite easy to sharpen with diamonds. Water stones would probably do well also, but haven't tried.

Seems like the edge polishes easily, and so they feel deceptively "unsharp" to the thumb, but in fact are able to shave. I kinda like them with a medium grit finish, toothy. I've heard numerous others say "takes a razor edge and loses it quite quickly, only to yield a pretty sharp edge that lasts and lasts."

Stellite comes in a bunch of different alloys, but 6K and 6BH are the ones that tend to show up in knives. I've read that 6K tends to be Rc44-48, maybe 50. To the extent that 6K is harder than 6BH, I would tend to think it would make a slightly better knife blade. Then again, Mayo found 6K was "extremely tough but prone to chipping"... maybe he meant "tough" as in "tough to grind". So there you go. You might not be able to tell them apart, side by side. Here is one I found, both Kit Carson and Rob Simonich, and Tom Mayo posted.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...id=91384&highlight=stellite+talonite+hardness

Personal opinion: I don't really have any reason to use Talonite... never need such tremendous corrosion resistance. Who knows, that may change someday, somehow. I'll take a high quality stainless steel at Rc59 or higher. IMHO, YMMV.

Even for a salt water fillet knife, I prefer a harder blade that is fairly corrosion resistant (say, S30V, 440C, etc), and I'd just prefer to wash it off when done. But I've fished with guys who just leave their fillet knives floating around in the cargo hold, or laying on the boat floor, soaking in salt water. They buy $15 fillet knives and toss them when shot. Different strokes and all.
 
I have a Tom Mayo Talonite hunter and it will hold a edge a very, long time and it will seem dull and in fact will be very sharp. It is not all that fragile, but I wouldn't recommend chopping with it. Also, will cuts meats with ease and makes a good skinning knife. I think that it makes a good edc if you don't chop with or abuse it.
 
Rob, you are correct in your statement that Talonite and Stellite are two different names for the same cobalt alloy and not as I stated, that the actual name for Talonite is STellite 6BH.

For anything I use a knife for, non-stainless high carbon steels would be my choice for the blades. I don't have a problem with the care that this necessitates. I agree that what is given up in exchange for high corrosion resistance is not worth it as far as my knife needs are concerned.
 
Ya, more of the same. Very abrasion resistant. A few people above said they heard talonite was brittle, but I don't think I've seen a lot of brittleness. What I have seen is problems that I attribute to talonite being soft. Compared against a steel knife of similar edge profile, I saw the talonite get some damage on the edge, which I've come to attribute to the material indenting to the point that it ripped a bit ... or, in other words, softness problems. I've seen several other cases where talonite wasn't the best choice when a lot of pressure is put on the edge (that is, high strength is valuable), like chopping, push cutting and torquing through hard materials. Beyond that, it holds its edge really nicely. I've found some uses for my TTTKK (Talonite TTKK) that I really like; most recently, found out that there is no other tool I have that works better for the very thorny problem of trimming my agave plant.

Joe
 
If you guys want to learn a great deal about about the different metals that are used to make blades, then you should check out this primer by Joe Talmadge. I found it to be incredibly instructive. Actually, I think it should be posted somewhere on this site where everyone could read it whenever they wanted.

http://www.edcknives.com/pdf-files/Steel_v2.pdf . You will need Adobe to open this file.

Edited because I left out some words that made my post hard to read.
 
What Keith said.

When Talmadge writes, I listen.

Said another way, it seems like I either learn from Joe, or have already learned and agree with what Joe writes. With no insult or slight to Joe intended, Joe seems to think like I do. Ergo, Joe has his head screwed on straight. ;)

[ that's an attempt at self deprecating humor, in the very flat ascii text format. See==> ;) :D ]

His FAQ is a real gift, especially for the new-to-intermediate aspiring knife knuts out there. Read and internalize this, and you'll be on your way to sorting the wheat from the chaff on these forums.

And there are a few references at the end for further reading.
 
Thanks guys, I take that as a real complement, considering the two of you are among the group I learn from the most. BTW, I've sent the v2 Steel and Sharpening FAQs to Spark, hopefully he'll find time to replace the older versions with those.

Joe
 
As far as I can see, the only drawback to stellite 6BH and 6K are the fact that they can bend much easier than hardenable steels.

Having said that, the fact that the edge continues on and on and the WONT RUST make the whole thing balance out.
It is pretty easy for the average person to sharpen....big plus.

S30V is very tough, holds an edge great, but is hard to sharpen.

ATS falls down in a lot of areas

440C is probably one of the best all around steels in the world. for the average user, I dont use it any more because Crucible has pushed the envelope way past where it was in the eighties.

Nothing is perfect, there are give and takes in every choice we make.
 
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