Art Knife Legacy

Strider

Strider

Joined
Oct 3, 1998
Messages
2,337
Les
Whats your opinion of Van Barnett? Everything I have seen by him indictes to me he will do a great job of carrying on in the tradition of Warenski who along with Julie make the finest pieces I have ever seen. Anyone elses thoughts on art knife makers?
Bob

 
Van seems to be winning a lot of "best of shows" over the last year or so. His work is awesome in my opinion and I have jumped on the bandwagon. I have also gotten to know him and Delana a little and think a lot of them both, knifemakers or not I have been lucky to get to know them.
 
There have been, and still are many talented makers out there in the art knife world.
I have a few opinions on whose work is the best in "art folders".

In Bowies, Michael Collins made the best full dress bowies ever when Bowie knife collecting was the rage in the 1970's and 80's. Unlike DE Henry, Mike's knives were usually quite ornate. Not only did Michael make a flawless knife, but he engraves as good as anyone, and did the first color scrimshaw. Some of his high end knives are breathtaking.

David Broadwell has made some nice pieces as well if you like a more organic look.

Folder-wise, Durvyn Howard or Ron lake are pretty hard to beat. I like Tim Herman's stuff and Warren Osborne's too.

In Daggers, Warenski is king, although I dont care for some of his elaborate styling.
Barnett's knives are nice too, but I don't like his "look" as much as that of some other makers.

For absolute versatility, Darrel Ralph does a great job in the art department.
From tactical-art folders, autos, Swords (you have seen Michaels sword, right?)
to forging his own Damascus, Darrels work is always one of a kind.

For the Asian Blade, Scott Slobodian and Don Polzien are notable. Scott's work in particularis fanatically detailed, but doesnt come cheap.

There are many more good "art" makers than tactical makers out there.
Hopefully as more people actually use custom knives, some of this will change.
 
I think Don Foggs high end stuff is among the best. I especially like the "Kemal" knives that Fogg/Sayen made.

 
ART KNIVES,

Intersting topic, what do you define an art knife as?

Anthony seems to indicate that an art knife is anything that is not user knife. This is based on his comment "there are many more good "art" makers than tactical makers out there. First, there is no such thing as a "good" art knife. It is either incredible or it does not fit into the category. That is why the category of Presentation Grade knives exsists.

I know this is as confusing as what is a "custom" knife.

Again, the names for these categories were thought up long before I came into custom knives, so don't kill the messenger.

Yes, there are knives that can be in between the two categories, meaning they have aspects of both.

Art knives (Generally considered to start at around $2,500) should not be confused with Presentation grade knives (generally in the $500 - $2,400 price range). Anthony, I think that is where the confusion exsists.

There are probably less than 50 knifemakers world wide who can get $2,500 for a knife consistently. I am not including, the cost of engraving, scrimshaw, gold inlay or jewels. To me that stuff is just like putting make up on an already incredible looking woman.

As a judge I never give extra credit for this. Ill let you in on a secret, many times a knife is engraved to hide mistakes in the construction. The same is true for scrimshaw on cracked Ivory. A good scrimshander can hide the cracks with their work.

The very best makers can do it all. Make Fighters, Bowies, Folders, etc. These are few and far between.

The Best in the world (arguably and in no particular order) are:

Buster Warinski
David Broadwell
Doug Casteel
Fred Carter
Larry Feugen
Willie Rigney

These elite group of makers have sold both folders and fixed blades for Thousands of $$$ each.

For folding knives only:

Michael Walker
H.H. Frank
Ray Appleton
John W. Smith (Buy it now while you can afford it).
Tim Herman
Ron Lake (although seems to make a lot of the same style of knife).

For Fixed blades only:

Jim Hammond
Michael Collins
D.E. Henry
George Herron
S.R. Johnson
Wolfgang Loerchner
Jerry Fisk

Damascus Auto Folders:
Darrel Ralph
Bill McHenry

Art pieces are so rare among the whole of custom knives that most are pre-sold. The ladies and gentlemen who routinely pay $5,000 + for these knives. Have for the most part already formed a personal relationship with the maker and trust them implicitly.

Art knives are a curious beast. While they will command top dollar from the original buyer. In the aftermarket they are slow to sell. With the exceptions's of the very top makers. I attribute most of this to the fact that people with $5,000 do not want "used" knife. They enjoy having something custom built just for them.

Anthony, there are literally over 100 makers around the world who produce "good tactical knives". However, it does not matter what category it is, there is only one best!

Another personal note, the aforementioned makers are put on these lists based on my experience of both buying and selling these makers work. Additonally, I add the other part of the equation that most dont consider when buying these high dollar knives. Will they hold their value in the aftermarket? Of course this is an entirely different thread!

Bob,

Van Barnett, certainly has the talent to be one of the best. There have been many before him with the same amount of talent. I am always amazed at guys like Van who seem to have so much artistic ability while I posses none.

However, it is a difficult road to walk down. As your prices go up, your market decreases. Fewer and fewer people will buy your knives as they just cannot afford them, or they would rather have 5 $1,000 knives instead of just 1 $5,000 knife.

Another area that comes into play is the ego of the person. Many times it gets to the point where the maker is so full of himself he loses touch with reality. They start to belive their own press. They lose site of the fact that you are only as good as your next knife. For as those admirers fawn around you and want for your attention, others around you wait for your screw up. So if your next knife is not better, the whispers start. The makers who seem to endure are the ones who even though they are the most sought after makers on the planet, they are some of the nicest guys you would ever want to meet.

Talk to Bill Moran sometime. Yes, he will actually stop and talk to you. George Herron, David Broadwell, John W. Smith, Jerry Fisk, Jim Hammond and others, great guys one and all.

I met Michael Walker for the first time at the SHOT Show this year. What a class guy.

Van and Delania (his wife) will offer collectors very exciting opportunites in the future. Collaboration knives between two great artists are always sought after. Much like Butch and Julie Warinski, Jim and Joyce Minnick,Doug and Dianne Casteel and Wolfgang Loerchner and Martin Butler, to name a few.

I have personally sold 14 knives that were in excess of $5,000. Yes, I remember exactly! My LDC partner Bob Neal and I this past January sold a pair of Bill Moran folders for $25,000.00. Yes, it is quite breath taken to own something like that, even it if it is only for a short period of time.

Art knives are dangerous, as the spoil you for all the rest.



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Les Robertson
Moderator
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
 
Les
Great opinions on all the reply's.Another maker that I neglected to mention was Jim Ence.Who doe's beautiful Price Bowies. Not much is mentioned regarding him.What catergory would you say he falls under strictly art or presentation grade? One might also argue that even though B.Moran makes fabulous user knives his prices are now up there with the very high end makers of art knives.eventionally do you also think Loveless will command that kind of money for his hunters or do you see a stop point? My final question at the moment is regarding Barrett-Smythe Galleries do they personally commision makers like Herman and Hoel etc to do there own ideas for knives or does Barrett-Smythe work with them on the designs or doe's Barrett-Smythe just act as brokers and the knives they sell are from personal collections only? Or (lot of ors here)Do they buy a plain folder and then have the embellishers work on them to there specifications?
Bob
 
Les

I consider an "art" knife, any knife that is primarily made as an ornament, not as a user.

In my humble opinion, there are no price distinctions on art, as one mans art is another mans trash.

The difference between presentation and art is purely semantics.

There is no confusion here with me regarding what an art knife is. Since your rules on what determines art are based on monetary values, I will respectfully disagree.

Personally , I consider every handmade knife, no matter how crappy, a work of art.
Not every painting is a Monet, or a DaVinci, and not every art knife can be a Lake or a Collins.


ok ok ok i get your point! geez cant a guy have an opinion around here?




[This message has been edited by Anthony Lombardo (edited 26 May 1999).]
 
Anthony,

Your last statment is 100% correct. This is why in custom knives there are Art knives and Presentation grade knives.

It's good to hear that you judge each knife on it's own merit. However, your version of the term Art Knife would not be the same as those who deal in these types of knives. Like it or not there are delineation points in both price and stature in custom knives. These points are recognized by those who make , buy and sell these knives.

Example, a pristine mint 1956 Corvette. It's not a race car, so it's just a regular car then? No, it's not. You can go to any Chevy dealer today and buy a Corvette. They are both Corvette's but Im sure you will agree there is a world of difference.

So Anthony your statements about semantics and all knives are art knives if the are not users does not hold up. What if someone buys a tactical knife but does not use it? What if someone buys a tactical knife and puts Ivory scales on it, is it now art or a tactical. If you say art, your wrong because the person still uses it. If you say its tacitcal someone could argue it's art, because who in the right mind would put Ivory on a tatcial knife. Kinda confusing isnt it.

Guys, this is something that has been bugging me. Look like it or not there are accepted terms and categories concerning custom knives. I did not create these or make these up. These are words and terms that are used to try and give a commonality of meaning across the board. Most of this has been done, as with most lexicon of a industry,initially, to help the people who create the product in the industry. Eventually, it filters to the consumer who then takes it into their everyday vernacular.

All those who have bought or sold a knife at $5,000 or over raise your hand. I dont see alot of hands up. The point to this is simply, just because you have never bought or sold a very expensive knife does not mean you cannot appreciate the worksmanship involved. However, until you have stepped into that arena you cannot fully comprehend the true difference between a Art knife and a Presentation Grade knife. As it truly changes your perception as to what a "custom" knife is.

The lines between tactical and "semi-production" may be a little fuzzy. But the lines are crystal clear between Art knives and all the other. The first line is the price tag!



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Les Robertson
Moderator
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
 
Les,

Is my Slobodian $2,200 kwaiken a presentation knife? It's not worth $2500 ya know...

I have always told people it was art.....

 
Anthony,

Yes, your Slobodian would be considered a presentation piece. As you look at it you could probably envision using it if necessary.

At $2,200 that is more or less a base model Kwaiken for Scott. This is not to imply it is not a good piece.

Anthony, price is not the only determinante. If that were the case Hartsfield's Wakazashi at $3,500 would be Art. It is definetly not art, its not even presentation.



------------------
Les Robertson
Moderator
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
 
Bob,

Yes, Jim Ence is excellent and would find a place on just about anyone's list.

Barrett-Smythe generally commission knives from makers and then have them embeleshed by engravers and other craftsmen. They definelty have created some incredible "art" pieces. I don't think they buy already created pieces, but they may.

Moran and Loveless are in a different category. Were for the fact that these gentlemen's names were not on the knives, no one would pay what they do for them.

Their knives have transcended the normal rules of knives. Yes, the prices will continue to rise. That is until someone who owns a sufficient number of their knives and are forced to sell or just want to liquidate their knives.

Once prices start to drop, this gives the buyers the advantage. As they now have a new negotiating position.

In this game of musical chairs you don't want to be the one left sitting in the chair.

My foray into Moran's made me more than a little nervous. It is quite a mindboggling experience to pay over $14,000.00 for one knife. I tried not to think about it to much.

If you consider yourself a custom knife knut and I have mentioned names you are not familiar with. Hit the books guys! They are all or will be Hall of Famers!



------------------
Les Robertson
Moderator
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
 
Les
As long as the subject is here a few otherr things I was wonderring. The collaboration that Lake and walker started which I believe is still alive name BullFrog? How do you think these knives will do future wise value wise? And then one other question something I think about.You mentioned H.H Frank who IMHO is the finest folder maker alive for the type of more traditional folder he does. But anyways my question. His wait was 10 or 15 yrs a few years ago realisticly are we talking almost double the stated time? I know there are other factors involved but what are the odds of having one custom made? Are makers like that more selective in there clientele?
Thanks
Bob
 
I know everyone here has very stong opinions about these things...but im surprised at not seeing rick eatons name mentioned....very nice work....
 
Bob,

When a maker quotes over 10 years, that is their way of politely saying, "you have no chance of getting a knife from me".

While Frank makes an icredible knife, I think most would agree that Walker is the best. He picks up big points for being so innovative.

Tom Mayo brought another superlative maker's name up. Rick Eaton. Tom, part of the reason Rick gets deleted from lists like this is because his lack of exposure to the market in general. Outside of the world of those who collect "art" knives, Rick is not known.

It seems about 5-6 years ago, some force came in and removed about 70% of the active collectors from custom knives. These indviduals were replaced by a new group of collectors. Who for monetary reasons mostly, started off their foray into custom knives with tactical folders.

These indviduals are now making their way into presentation and art knives. However, because these collectors are relatively new to custom knives, many are not aware of the super stars of the past. This is not helped by the fact that many of these great makers do not advertise and many times when they come to a show, they only bring pictures of their work. Makers have to make a constant effort to makert their work. They owe it to those collectors who "brought them to the dance".

Makers do not pay enough attention as to how their work is selling in the aftermarket. Mostly, because they are the primary market and the feel they receive nothing for their time in the aftermarket. This is a mistake on the part of the maker.

Makers who are sought after in the aftermaket , will receive additonal direct orders they would not normally get. Also, the "buzz" gets attached to their name. If however, the maker does not keep current and interface with customers and potential customers the buzz will find someone new.

Take a look at the photo catalog that Nordic Knives provides. They have an excellent selection of world class knives. However, most of todays collectors are not familiar with these makers. Herman Schneider, Jim Ence, Charlie Weiss, DE Henry, Willie Rigney, Buster Warinski, Tim Herman, Jack Busfield, Steve Hoel and other Hall of Famers.

For whatever reason(s), these gentlemen for the most part hit a plateau and have stayed there. Which is fine for them, however, it is not helping their aftermarket sales.

On a side note, I do find the Buster Warinski is doing something about that. He is back on the Guild Board of Directors, he is writing in Blade and is attending more shows. Im happy to see that, he had some incredible daggers at the East Coast Custom Knife show. Buster comes across as a guy who is confident in his abilities, but his demeanor belies his standing in the custom knife world. He knows that 99% of the people walking into a show cannot afford his work, yet he is gracious with both his time and knowledge. This cannot be said for all world class makers. Even just good makers seem to suffer from "tire kicker itis". This happens when you are answering more questions and making fewer sales.

You have tire kickers, a derogatory term used to describe those who have neither the inclination or the income to purchase a knife from them.

Be Backs, these are the individuals who tell the makers and dealers they will be back. Guys Ill let you in on another secret. When we hear that we immediately write you off. Your best off just to say, very nice work or something like that and walk away.

the third type is the Whistling Gopher. They ask you how much does that knife "go fer" you tell them and then they look up at the sky (as if seeking devine intervention) and then whistle.

Back to the questions.

Bull Frog Knives, I belive has been put on hold. Michael and Ron made up 3 or 5 prototypes of what was going to be a semi-production type knife. They sold those in the $5,000 range. They had a lock mechanism (a saftey on a liner lock), which two year ago at the Blade Show one an award and believe a factory then approched them about buying the rights to that mechanism. That was the last I heard of Bull Frog. That doesnt mean they are not working on something else.



------------------
Les Robertson
Moderator
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
 
Les
Thanks for the answers. This particular forum is the only place to get insight on these kind of questions and as they keep coming to me I will keep asking.
Bob
 
charlie weiss was someone i meant to mention to...quitely goes about his business of making perfect art.....and the ill be back and gofer lines .....perfect.....how about the guys who pick it up...ask how much...and then put it down like it was burning their hand when you tell them the price....Ive had tv personalities do this...people i know are making hundreds of thousands of dollars...???
 
I am a pretty serious collector and know a little, but the infomation Les has posted here is invaluable and should be studied. Thanks Les. (I know the work of each maker he mentioned (mostly via Knives POI) and have handled a few as well as having read numerous articles over the years on each of them and I still read his posts 3 times to make sure I got all of it.) What he said about personalities and ego is also true. Each of the people that he mentions that I have gotten to meet (not that I have met them all) and talk to for a while are the finest people I have ever met. They seem to have a common thread of very high character and humility. When I first started looking at some of this type of work (and couldn't come close to affording it) one of those makers spent about 45 min. with me away from his table at the Blade Show in the front lobby, I was sometimes reluctant to "bother" a maker, do not make that mistake, you will miss out on meeting someone special in most cases.

I have also found that when I do get down to bass tacks about the design, materials and embelishment with the maker that if I keep in mind what the maker enjoys and try to keep my desires within their style a relationship develops that hangs around long after the knife is delivered.

After getting to know Van and Dellana I feel that they fall into the same category as far as their personalities. When I found out they were engaged I called to congratulate them and got in line for one of their collaborations. Time will tell if it was a good decision as far as holding it's value and I realized that when I asked them, but I will enjoy owning it. Mostly because of the friendship, but also because I have enjoyed their work as individual makers.

Another thing you may want to consider when making a decision on a high end knife is the length of the waiting period and if it seems to have lengthened over the last few years at a steady rate.
 
Gus,

Thank you for the kind words.

Tom,

Price is a relative term for all of us. Just because someone has money, doesn't mean they know what quality is. More to the point, they don't know what value is.

I remember my first custom knife, of course it was a tactical fixed blade. A hollow handle survival knife from Robert Parrish for $175.00. In 1984, that was alot of money for a knife. Even Randall's didnt cost that much.

Now $175, is about the least expensive knife I sell.

It's amazing how a mere 15 years can change your perspective!



------------------
Les Robertson
Moderator
Robertson's Custom Cutlery
http://www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com/rcc/makers.shtml
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken.
 
Les
First your comment on YOUR ONLY AS GOOD AS YOUR LAST KNIFE .. Is ON THE MONEY!
Also the comment on endurance is a good one. Class act, good to your clients and to all others is a factor of just plain old life in general for sucess. Its an honor to be in your vision of who's who's.. I know your a tough guy most often and speak your mind.
One thing that you have to look out for is getting full of yourself and living in a fantasy world. The Krait project that we did has helped me see that. I get more enjoyment out of making knives now than I did two years ago. I enjoy making all types of knives now.
When making art knives every day there seems to be a black hole that you have to live in to see what's next . This is a hard place to be in all the time. Now I enjoy making all types of knives . The break from knife to knife (from art to utility) is a good thing for me. It alows me to be more creative on the higher end.... and learn much more for the next art knife. Burn out from to many art knives IMHO is a reality..

BTW thanks!

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