ATS-34:CONSPIRACY!!!

Joined
Dec 18, 1998
Messages
417


All of the blades I own that are made of ATS-34 just don't cut it. And these are numerous. They sharpen easily but can't hold an edge! I'll cut one tomato with an ATS blade and find the edge dull...

I'll open a box with an ATS blade and end up with a dull edge. You name it, I'll cut it and the blade will be dull! And this is done with many different knives made of ATS ranging from custom Terzuolas, custom Emersons, to Spydercos and Benchmades!

ATS-34 CANNOT HOLD AN EDGE... PERIOD!

There exist knives that actually hold the razor sharp edge that you meticulously craft. But none of these consist of ATS-34.

I read numerous reviews that state otherwise, but have yet to experience such a phenomenon..and I own many knives crafted from ATS-34.

If I harbor such sentiments towards this steel, why do I possess such an abundance of them? BECAUSE MORE OFTEN THAN NOT, I HAVE NO CHOICE!!!

It is obvious that the market does not always dictate the superior product. In this particular case, the market trend propigates an inferior product.

Who can tell me why?

[This message has been edited by Ronald Reagan (edited 31 December 1998).]

[This message has been edited by Ronald Reagan (edited 31 December 1998).]

[This message has been edited by Ronald Reagan (edited 31 December 1998).]
 
While I agree with you that ATS-34 is NOT the optimal steel for fine blades, I am somewhat surprised that you have had such poor luck with it. My wife's Benchmade mini-AFCK has an ATS-34 blade and it stays reasonably sharp for quite a while (although not nearly as long as my mini-AFCK in M2!).

ATS-34 would not be my first choice in knife steel, but it certainly does an adequate job... it also has the advantages of stain resistance and relatively low cost.

AJ
 
I quite agree, although I too am surprised with the total lack of performance you have experienced. Almost 8 years ago, I had 440C, ATS34 and 440V photomicrographed. My heat treater summed it up completely with "this stuff looks like crap" Dirty grain boundaries, whopping big carbides, unevenly distributed. All BAD!!

That is why I don't use the stuff!!
BG42 is the way to go, but, I must emphasize that it requires absolutely first class heat treatment, PRECISELY per the Specs!!

Heat treating BG42 properly is an all day affair, from hardening thru the third temper. With the required liquid Nitrogen freeze, it's a 24 hour process.

But, it's worth it in the end. It cuts!!

RJ Martin
 
I'm fairly surprised, and my suspicion is that you have some other problem. ATS-34, properly heat treated, is a good edge holder. No, it's not 420V or even BG-42, but it holds an edge well, in my experience.

I don't how to explain your experience, maybe it's more difficult to knock the burr off ATS-34, so you're consistently ending up with a wire edge that breaks off and leaves you with a dull knife after your first few cuts. I can cut with my ATS-34 Benchmades all day, that's for sure.

That said, though I think your argument is debateable, I agree completely with your conclusion. It's time to move beyond ATS-34. As Thaddeus and many others have said, with steels like BG-42 and 420V around, and the option of coated non-stainless steels, there's no reason to use ATS-34.

But the fact is, ATS-34 performs pretty good for me, edge-holding wise. Weird that it's performing so badly for you!

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
 
I must admit that ATS-34 holds a fairly good edge.
BUT, the rags report that tests of some scinetific sort show that BG-42 holds an edge 3 times better and CPM440V holds an edge 10 times longer! CPM420V probably can outdo the lot of them, I suspect, from the stats.
IMHO, though, nothing beats a coated tool steel blade in strength, edge taking (no wire) and edge holding. Keep in mind, there are also better coatings out there than what we have seen so far, but that is my next tyrade, after I purge the Earth of ATS-34.

The worst part about ATS-34, in my experience, is it extreme brittleness! I have chipped so many edges and tips doing things that just should not chip a blade.
I can sacrifice a little edge holding for toughness, but ATS-34 is only fair these days in the edge holding department and very poor in the strength department. We need to start a revolt, right here, right now, and demand with our wallets and voices that the makers move past ATS-34 and into the more modern steels.

Although, I have a feeling that we will encounter a lot of the same rhetoric that I got when I asked why custom makers are still putting liner locks on their overbuilt, tough folders. Why take a supremely tough folder like a Carson or a Lightfoot with it's heavy bolsters and such, built for extreme strength, and then ruin it with a brittle ATS-34 blade and an unpredicatable liner lock? The anwer was akin to "we use it because it is simple and we already know how and have the machinery set up for those processes".
Getting makers, both custom and production, past ATS-34, will be tough because so many steel makers and mass tempering services have got the technique down, and no one is going to want to take the effort and money to learn to temper a new steel, find a new supplier etc, when so many ill-informed people are happy with ATS-34.

"The difference between insanity and genius is measured only by success".
Either I am a ranting lunatic, or things will change and then it will be called an engenius revolution in the knife industry (which I am not so egotistical as to take full credit for).

thaddeus
 
Why all that whining and sniffling? Vote with your wallet. Don't buy ATS-34 linerlocks anymore!

There is always Mad Dog. Good old O1 as a fixed blade. That's all you need to get your cutting chores done. And the best is, for less than all these oh so cool folders are.
 
It is a supply thing more than a real choice with ats-34.
You can get ats in almost any size you want and its cheap compared to other steels.
I am changing this by starting a constant supply of cpm 420V and 3V in knifemaking sizes.
So over this next year things are going to change.

ED
 
I'm with ya guy. I say we just go back to plain old tool steels with nice coatings. They take a edge well, hold it great and with their coating they are more stainless than ATS-34 could ever even dream about.

MHO,
Adam

------------------
"There are 2 kinds of people in life. The ones who don't post on this forum and the ones who are going to heaven" ;)
 
Well thaddeus, I don't know what mags you have been reading, but the only people touting BG-42 as better than 440V are the people who do not want to use 440V or 420V because they are extremely hard to work. The truth is that 440V outlasts BG-42 if both steels are properly treated. In fact BG-42 is right in between ATS-34 and 440V in edge holding. Custom makers who use ATS, 440V and BG-42, will all usually say that 440V holds a better edge by a loooooooong margin. Of course these same custom makers say 420V is even better. In fact there is a comparison in Tactical knives ,Jan,1999, comparing all three steels, and the winner is----440V.

Sorry thaddeus, I misread your post. You did state that 440V outlasts BG-42.

[This message has been edited by Cobalt (edited 02 January 1999).]
 
Still watching the toughness results for 420V. BG42 seems to have the upper hand here-along with a more reasonable ease of resharpening when required.

Remember, it's not only about edge holding-it's the balance of properties. Nothing in steel comes without a tradeoff.

RJ
 
Yeah, I have a CPM420V Krait, a BG-42 Baby 'Benza, and a couple of M-2 AFCKs, and CPM420V holds an edge like crazy, but I find it actually troublesome to sharpen. You almost gotta' use diamond on that stuff. The 440V Spyderco Military was a pretty good compromise, but don't know if 440V is tactical stuff in terms of toughness. M-2 and BG-42 are my favorites. They hold an edge well, and are reasonable to sharpen. Chris Reeve made an interesting post on the Reeve forum over on knifeforums.com in regard to why he used BG-42 in the Sebenzas instead of A-2 (I like A-2 a lot!). It is worth reading with the usual caveat that he is selling BG-42 knives of course. He makes it sound like BG-42 is just as good as tool steel in terms of toughness and edge holding, and he seems to be saying he would have made his one-piece knives out of it if BG-42 machined as well as A-2. He could have put A-2 blades in the Sebenza if he had wanted too, so it is a little hard to think he is just using BG-42 because it is popular. ATS-34 actually makes a decent knife blade if it is tempered right. I have a couple of ATS-34 blades from Ernest Mayer that are very tough for stainless steel. I have done quite a bit of side-by-side edge holding comparisons between ATS-34 and tool steel blades, and ATS-34 holds its own well at higher hardness numbers. It doesn't have near the potential that the new wonder steels do though.

Harv

[This message has been edited by Steve Harvey (edited 12 January 1999).]
 
Steve as for having to use diamond hones doesn't it seem a bit silly to be complaining about makers using old steels and them complaining that the new ones are too hard to sharpen using old hones?

Anyway, as for the more abrasion resistant compounds making diamond hones necessary, most really hard steels (like Mad Dogs O1) give the softer stones (like the aluminum oxide waterstones) fits as they just slip right on over them.

Sure more abrasion resistant materials are going to take longer to sharpen but I don't understand why that is ever brought up as a con. Its not like the difference is significant because no matter how abrasion resistant the materials are diamond cuts them apart quickly. Once your Krait gets blunted enough for you to want to resharpen it just how long does it take for you to get it back to working order?

-Cliff
 
I think one of Chris Reeve's other big reasons for using BG-42 in the Sebenza is that it has stain resistance.

I made a promise to myself several months ago that I would no longer purchase ATS34 knives (or 440a/b/c). BG42, 420/440v or better. I've kept my word so far, I just wish more of the custom makers would come around.

I also said I'm not buying a folding knife with less than a 3.75 inch blade and really a 3.9" blade is as small as I'll go, unless it is a very small pocket knife. If it has a clip, it better big big.

--Doug
 
Reeve has stated that it is his opinion/experience that BG-42 is tougher and holds an edge better than most tool steels and is comparable to the high-speed steel ones. He also has stated that he would use BG-42 instead of A2 for his fixed blades but the production costs are too high.

This does not agree with the reports I have seen (for example Mad Dog's Sebenza review) and I think its just similar to how Cold Steel keeps saying why their stainless is the best or why Benchmade keeps using ATS-34 etc.

-Cliff
 
When the M-2 AFCK first came out, I did an edge holding comparison with the M-2 AFCK, an ATS-34 AFCK, and a CPM440V Spyderco Military. I cut everything in site in my garage for hours, taking ten cuts with each in turn, waiting until one of the blades would get dull enough for me to tell it was inferior to the others. I cut for hours. I got monster blisters even through the bicycling gloves I was wearing, and I never did notice a difference in the edge performance of those knives.

A couple of years ago, I did a similar comparison between a Benchmade Ascent, and an ATS-34 Wood/Irie Model B. I mostly wanted to see if production ATS-34 was inferior to "custom" ATS-34. Just for grins I threw in a Mad Dog ATAK, and a 5160/L6 Damascus blade I had. It was not a very scientific comparison, but there really wasn't that big a gap between the production ATS-34 edge and the ATAK edge. Another good thing I learned about ATS-34 while comparing it to M-2, was that the larger carbides in the stainless blade made it a more aggressive cutter on hard materials like wood.

BG-42, CPMX, and tool steels are all better, but ATS-34 doesn't make too bad a blade if it is heat treated right. Generally, you want it hard, about 61 RcH, and tempering it at the lower temperature range results in a better grain structure. Ernest Mayer of Black Cloud Knives is a metalurgist and metalographer along with being a knife maker, and he has done a lot of testing of ATS-34. He has also had ATS-34 samples tempered at the two different tempering zones evaluated by an independant metalagrapher, and the results were that the blades tempered at the lower tempering range were about 20% tougher, more stain resistant, more abrasion resistant that the blades tempered at the upper range. He has made a number of short swords out of ATS-34 at 61 RcH, a couple in use by soldiers in the field, and they have performed very well.

Harv
 
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