Blade Hardness of the Golden Age

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berzerker

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Jan 27, 2002
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After reading through many of the High-End vs. Low-End steel debates, especially in the Traditionals forum, I find myself wondering:

What sort of hard data do we have on the hardness of slippies from 50 years ago and older, when the common steel was some flavor of carbon? Who has run hardness tests on lightly-used knives of this period?

I'm guessing that a) there was much less consistency b) hardness was in the low to mid 50s.

To put this in context: The more years we go back, the more knives were genuine working tools--expected to stand up to hard use, be resharpened, and go back for more. Keeping in mind that sharpening is simply corrective wear, and--as another forumite put so well "wear in is wear out," those users of years past would not have tolerated a tool that took more effort to maintain than to use. (Coming from families of millers and farmers, I can vouch for this attitude. )

I seriously doubt the majority of us subject our slippies to the kind of regular tasks that the old knives endured. Some gripe about the need for more super-steels, but--eventually--it seems to be looking for bragging rights more than anything.

OK, I've made my popcorn...
 
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One point: most hardness tests on old slipjoints tend to spec way softer than the blades actually are. Why? Because you need a flat surface to test the hardness with most testers, so people test the tang. This will give the WRONG result -- the tangs of most old knives were either drawn back or were never fully hardened to begin with, to allow crinking of the blades and to more closely match the tang hardness to the spring hardness to reduce wear (remembering that people often neglected to "oil the joints").

Most correctly done tests that I've heard about spec in the mid 50's on hardness - say 54-56 or so. The very fine grain of the steels being used tended to make the edges last longer than you would expect at this hardness.
 
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zerogee said:
One point: most hardness tests on old slipjoints tend to spec way softer than the blades actually are. Why? Because you need a flat surface to test the hardness with most testers, so people test the tang. This will give the WRONG result -- the tangs of most old knives were either drawn back or were never fully hardened to begin with, to allow crinking of the blades and to more closely match the tang hardness to the spring hardness to reduce wear (remembering that people often neglected to "oil the joints").

Most correctly done tests that I've heard about spec in the mid 50's on hardness - say 54-56 or so. The very fine grain of the steels being used tended to make the edges last longer than you would expect at this hardness.
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I agree. I've tested pocket knife blades that measured in the 40's, but I knew that was incorrect because of the edge retention. And I know that the tangs had to be softened to bend the blades.

54-56 is my guess at the actual hardness.
 
Most of the old blades I've seen are full flat or hollow ground. These would have to be cut apart and mounted to get a good hardness. My old Buck had some flats that could have been tested but I never did. I tested my Old Timer/Schrade Peanut once and got about 58 HRc. There was a small enough flat that I was able to get a good reading.
 
If I remember correctly, another reason for soft tangs is because it is safer for an abused knife to bend rather than suddenly snap.
 
berzerker said:
I seriously doubt the majority of us subject our slippies to the kind of regular tasks that the old knives endured.
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Forget just slippies. I seriously doubt the majority of us subject any knife to the kind of regular tasks that the old knives endured.

-- Mark
 
Another very important reason for the softer tang is so the master cutler can do the final fitting job by hand, using hand tools almost exclusively. Obviously, this was vital for working in the old Sheffield mode, though somewhat less so in America after the turn of the century (1900s) as the factories used more and more machinery, but still important.
 
A friend of mine has tested several old ontario and other butcher knives (from the early days) He said they usually tested around 54..
 
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