Call for Discussion: Negotiating a Remedy

Cougar Allen

Cougar Allen

Buccaneer (ret.)
Feedback: +8 / =0 / -0
Joined
Oct 9, 1998
Messages
75,780
If you receive a knife and find it isn't what you expected -- doesn't seem to you to be in as good condition as the seller described it, isn't the model he described it as, whatever -- obviously you can cancel the deal and get your money back, but ... what about negotiating a different remedy than that?

What if one party to the deal proposes the seller refund part of the buyer's money and let him keep the knife?

It seems reasonable to propose something like that, and the other party might agree to it. On the other hand, there seems to be some potential for abuse. What if a buyer proposes a partial refund and the seller doesn't agree? Would it be appropriate for the buyer to give up on negotiations at that point and post on this forum that the seller sent him a damaged knife and refuses to make good on it?

What if somebody starts making a habit of finding some nit to pick with every knife he trades for and proposing the seller refund a small amount of money in compensation for the claimed defect? Somebody might figure he could propose that every time and if he asks for a refund of about the same amount it would cost for shipping to cancel a trade, the seller might agree to that and he'd get five or ten dollars off on every trade he makes....



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-Cougar Allen :{)
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This post is not merely the author's opinions; it is the trrrrrruth. This post is intended to cause dissension and unrest and upset people, and ultimately drive them mad. Please do not misinterpret my intentions in posting this.
 
Hey Cougar,

I recently had a transaction that did not go perfectly but had a perfect resolution.

It was a trade plus cash with another forumite with a good rep on here, so I was confident anyway. Turns out the knife I sent him wasn't what he wanted, but his knife was what I wanted - I made up the difference with cash.

And I let him know at the outset that if there was any problem with my knife, we could swap back with no hard feelings. And he was more than a gentleman, and things were cordial. We followed every step with emails.

Two recommendations : ALWAYS have a pre-agreed upon approval period, 2 or 3 days is usually plenty. If both parties can't work out any differences, return the merchandise and/or payment. Period. And Email or talk on the phone.

Also, shipping different ways can be a pain - for me, I'd rather pay extra on me for UPS at my local Mail Boxes, Etc. than stand in line at the USPS. Keep that in mind when planning on returned deals.

I'm new at this, but the standards seem simple for those on the up-and-up and want to maintain a good rep on here.

What if somebody starts making a habit of finding some nit to pick with every knife he trades for and proposing the seller refund a small amount of money in compensation for the claimed defect? Somebody might figure he could propose that every time and if he asks for a refund of about the same amount it would cost for shipping to cancel a trade, the seller might agree to that and he'd get five or ten dollars off on every trade he makes....
Click to expand...

No idea, except you gotta know your product and it's worth, to you anyway. Would it be worth it to the picky buyer to cancel the deal for that $5-10 and have to eat the costs of return mail? Cancel the deal and see.

Depending on the item and it's value to me, maybe it's worth the $5-10 extra. Unless you want to go the eBay route and have some unfeasible feedback system here (I can see Spark's eyes rolling now
smile.gif
)


Nick

[This message has been edited by chetchat (edited 21 December 1999).]
 
Nick--the way you outlined it is the way I would want to do business. Good sound business practice
cool.gif
 
I am a new user to bladeforums and have been looking a the posts for a couple of months now without either buying or replying.
I, like a lot of folks, will get familiar with a dealer(the sellers forum) before making the plunge.
Perhaps we,as knife lovers, should realise that to enrich our preferred hobby and bring new collectors into the fold there should be
a code of ethics. Perhaps we should come up with some amongst ourselves. There are 4400+
of us and with all those great thinkers we could do it.
After the Code of Conduct is established, then post it stating that violations could result in loss of membership. Complaints
would be resolved handled in the good, bad and ugly.

The more collectors we sign up, the more
potential buyers /traders we will all have, not to mention the wealth of knowlege more
users will bring. The more devisive and bitter we are- the more users will drop off.
Just some thoughts I think this is an excellent site and 10,000 users would be great.
smile.gif


 
~Allen~
"As moderator (not arbitrator) I don't feel it would be appropriate for me to express any opinions I may have on matters of controversy -- let me just remind everybody to stick to the facts. It might help if after you write a post you get up and walk around a few minutes, maybe throw knives at a target or something, before you post it."

Allen,
I thought you were not taking sides?! Guess not. Very unfair, but that's life. Owl did not make any mention about refunding any amount of money or blade for his mistake, how do you see that as me nit picking and taking advantage? And do you think I get off on wasting my time doing this? I just want a forum that I can trade/buy/sell knives without being ripped off. Is that so wrong of me? Moderate, don't take sides without the facts. E-mail me for my number if you would like to speak more on this subject.

[This message has been edited by RyanMalpiede (edited 21 December 1999).]
 
I don't mean to take sides in any dispute and act as some kind of arbitrator or judge. I think it is appropriate for me to ask questions when the facts at issue in a controversy are not clear as yet, and I've done that once already, earlier today.

I think it's appropriate for me to start discussions on general questions of trading practice or ethics -- just starting a discussion, not acting like a legislator announcing the enactment of a law, just getting a discussion started.

I didn't mean to accuse anyone of nitpicking in a particular case; I'm sorry if that hypothetical situation came across that way. I'm hoping a discussion can make it clearer to everyone what the accepted standards are, what "NIB" and "mint" and words like that mean to collectors. I think there might be some members here who don't realize how much a tiny scratch can reduce the value of a knife....


I actually haven't formed any opinion on the current controversy involving Owl -- it's not clear to me yet what the facts are. How can anyone decide whether what happened was right or wrong until we know exactly what happened? When I do form an opinion I don't intend to post it -- because my opinions are no better than anyone else's, and yet if I post them I'm afraid that wouldn't be taken as just one more member's opinion, not coming from someone with "moderator" under his name.


The object of discussions on this forum should be to bring out the facts and then everybody can form their own opinions about whether they want to deal with a particular business or individual or not. You don't need me to tell you what to think; you're all perfectly capable of thinking for yourselves. I see my role as trying to keep heated emotions within reasonable bounds and helping to bring out and clarify the facts in particular disputes and getting discussions started on more general issues to clarify what the consensus is.

I think it would help if we can keep discussions of trading practices somewhat separate from discussions of the facts of particular transactions ... I'm not sure how that's going to work out. Obviously this thread was inspired by discussion going on currently on specific transactions, and I expect most discussions on general issues will be. I don't know if it's going to be possible to keep issues at all separate ... maybe it's a bad idea to even try. What do the members think?

I only started moderating this forum a couple of days ago and I'm still feeling my way. I'm very open to discussion of policy. I want to apply the general consensus of the group -- I have no interest in trying to be a dictator at all. Naturally when I accepted the job I expected to be criticized from time to time and I'm not going to be touchy about that -- go ahead and tell me what you think!

Do you think it's appropriate for me to ask questions to clarify an issue of fact that seems to be unclear? Or should I hold myself back and leave it for someone else to ask?

Is it appropriate for me to start threads like this one? Or would it be appropriate to start a discussion of an issue of general practice and ethics but only if there isn't a thread currently discussing a particular transaction where that's an issue?

I'm still feeling my way here. Maybe it would be best if I just lurk in the background and only step in when somebody violates the rules. What do the members think?

------------------
-Cougar Allen :{)
--------------------------------------
This post is not merely the author's opinions; it is the trrrrrruth. This post is intended to cause dissension and unrest and upset people, and ultimately drive them mad. Please do not misinterpret my intentions in posting this.

[This message has been edited by Cougar Allen (edited 21 December 1999).]
 
Cougar-

I think that it is very appropriate for you to start threads like this one and to be fairly proactive in issues like this. It is one thing for folks to gripe or complain or even praise other forumites that they have conducted transactions with; it is quite another to identify repetitive themes/problems and try to have a reasoned discourse with the goal of having a concensus (sheesh, I really sound like a TQL guru here, and believe me I'm not
smile.gif
) or at least a well known baseline of standards and expectations. So (despite my mega run-on sentence) I think that you are right on in starting this type of thread.
Hoo-yah!

Bob
 
Also, after we have kinda hashed out what the baselines ought to be why don't you whip up a short FAQ including our agreed upon definitions of what makes NIB, mint, excellent, good, fair, poor, and fecal condition when describing knives for sale/trade.

Bob
 
This thread is very appropriate.
Here is how I avoided any problems in the
many tranactions I been involved in.

1) Be honest, if the knife has faults, point them out to the buyer. I've sold some very expensive used knives here, so I found it important to point out every scratch and blemish. Buyers: if the knife you want must be absolutely perfect, consider buying from
one of the many dealers who post here.

2) Stay in contact as the transaction proceeds. Sellers should let the buyer know when the knife is shipped, buyers should let the seller know when the knife is received.

3) Always get a tracking number so the buyer and seller will both know if the carrier screws up.

4) If the sale is final, make this clear before the buyer sends the money. My opinion is that there should be a standard three day "right of return" on any other
transaction.

5) Be polite, we're here to have fun. We''re
a small community, we have to stick together.

I hope this makes sense.
 
Our policy has always been, and will continue to be the following:
  • When making trades, the trader will make full disclosure of all defects, blemishes, etc that would lower the knife being traded.
  • If there is a problem with a trade or sale, the buyer is expected to make every attempt to contact and work things out with the trader before posting on the forums about their problems. This includes, but is not limited to phone calls, faxes, and emails.
  • If all this fails to get a response, then and only then is it time to go to the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. Both sides get their opportunity to present their case. Moderators and Admins have the final say as to who is "right" in the forum's eyes.
  • "Break a deal, face the wheel" - Just like Thunderdome, you screw around and there will be consequences.... depending on the nature of the screwing.

Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here


[This message has been edited by Spark (edited 22 December 1999).]
 
Did a discussion begin anywhere on creating a standardized grading scale? A great idea, but it seems like it got skipped over a little bit and forgotten.

Thanks,
Matt
 
A standardized scale already exists for grading knives. Most collector's books discuss it. The best policy for anyone trying to sell anything is "Under promise, and over deliver".

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Paul Davidson

Them:"What's that clipped to your pocket, a beeper?"
Me:"Uuh....yeah, something like that."


 
It might be a good idea to come up with a FAQ (as stated above) so that the members here would have a readily available source at the same point most of them conduct their trades/sales.

Maybe someone with more knowledge than I about how to exactly define these can help Cougar .......

Bob
 
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