-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Cant Sharpen To Save My Life !!
- Thread starter Brendan
- Start date
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2001
- Messages
- 5,946
When got my first khuk I couldn't sharpen at all. I can sort of sharpen now hair even falls off my arm on occasion. Just keep at it.
I've been using round ceramic rods and similar movements as for the chakma. Dunno, everyone has their own techniques here.
The most important advice that I got was to establish a burr, then refine it.
I've been using round ceramic rods and similar movements as for the chakma. Dunno, everyone has their own techniques here.
The most important advice that I got was to establish a burr, then refine it.
It's getting that burr that can be troublesome. I can do it with a steel, but not with a stone or sandpaper.
To quote a former President, "I feel your pain", Brendan.
S.
PS. Remember boys and girls, it all depends on what your definition of the word "is" is.
To quote a former President, "I feel your pain", Brendan.
S.
PS. Remember boys and girls, it all depends on what your definition of the word "is" is.
Thought I knew how to sharpen, but find the khuks difficult. Had some good advice over the forum. Could it be the HI is better steel than I have had in knives before. Pretty sure it is.
Think I found out quite a bit, you must also first understand the knife. Check out the Tutorials, waaaaay up at the top of the forum page and the knife sharpening in the HI FAQ.
I have had some old ark stones, one ceramic and the Buck Knife sharpener. I think I have learned you really don't want to change the edge from the original, which you can do, inadvertently by the wrong sharpening method.
The tutorial explains the different edges and many other good things.
Think I found out quite a bit, you must also first understand the knife. Check out the Tutorials, waaaaay up at the top of the forum page and the knife sharpening in the HI FAQ.
I have had some old ark stones, one ceramic and the Buck Knife sharpener. I think I have learned you really don't want to change the edge from the original, which you can do, inadvertently by the wrong sharpening method.
The tutorial explains the different edges and many other good things.
Read the Tutorial especially Blade Geometry and Sharpending FAQ by Joe Talmadge AND Uncle has a few good points in the HI FAQ in the Construction and Maintenance Section about the steel.
IF I'm not mistaken the Khuks have the flat edge type for sharpening, Someone please correct me, If I have read it wrong. DG
GOOD STEEL TAKE A WHILE TO SHARPEN CORRECTLY .
IF I'm not mistaken the Khuks have the flat edge type for sharpening, Someone please correct me, If I have read it wrong. DG
GOOD STEEL TAKE A WHILE TO SHARPEN CORRECTLY .
Like you Brendan my sharpening skills were (I thought) good. Then I got the khuks and have given up on trying to get shaving sharp. Not that the khuks care, they still cut through anything I try them on.
Most usefull advice I can give is to look at the edge with the sharp edge pointing at your face (as though you are about to try and cut your skull open) and get the light to reflect off it so you can see the discrepancies and flat portions. Then use a stone to gently stroke these areas, one side then the other, untill you get an even meeting of the two sides, and so you find it difficult to actually SEE the edge at all. Then a gentle strop or rub with an arkansas stone to get a mirror finish.
This is the method I use on my other knives, and achieve shaving sharp. On the khuks it gets a good edge, but shaving still eludes me.
And it still bugs me
Jeff.
Most usefull advice I can give is to look at the edge with the sharp edge pointing at your face (as though you are about to try and cut your skull open) and get the light to reflect off it so you can see the discrepancies and flat portions. Then use a stone to gently stroke these areas, one side then the other, untill you get an even meeting of the two sides, and so you find it difficult to actually SEE the edge at all. Then a gentle strop or rub with an arkansas stone to get a mirror finish.
This is the method I use on my other knives, and achieve shaving sharp. On the khuks it gets a good edge, but shaving still eludes me.
And it still bugs me
Jeff.
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2000
- Messages
- 1,522
Sounds to me like you arent being patient enough. If you know how to get a burr with the courser stones, and youre losing it on the finer it sounds like you arent being patient enough with the finer stones. Since the finer stones are well finer, and dont remove as much material as fast, depending on how fine the last stone was it may take more time. Dont skip grades of stone, or whatever medium youre using. It really makes life easier to go through the grades. Raising a burr with a fine stone from the coarsest will take more time, not to mention allow more room for error if you get frustrated. Other than that, like Bruise said its all about practice.
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2002
- Messages
- 2,737
I'm no expert but I can get my khuks to take hair off my arm and slice ripe tomatoes.
All burrs are not created equal. They result from pushing metal to one side. The thinner the metal the easier to push it over. A steel will mostly move metal, and a strop, unless loaded with coarse abrasive will mostly polish with less moving of metal. These are used to align and polish the edge and then keep it so. They won't do much unless a good sharp edge exists already. A burr will also naturally result from sharpening with a stone or other abrasive when it is REmoving metal all the way to the edge. If it occurrs over the whole length of the edge, you know that side has been completely done. This latter way of making the burr is what is stressed.
EDIT: correction--The steel and strop will do what they always do, it's just that if a fine even edge doesn't already exist, it won't get sharper. The steel should be used if some ding or wave puts the edge out of allignment. That way when you start removing metal, you wont get a thin spot where the ding is.
You may need to remove some metal with a coarse stone or even a file if there are thick spots on the edge.
If the edge is dull, you want to remove metal, and use the burr so created to keep track of progress. Gradually go to finer grits which will start to polish things and should lead to ever smaller burrs. Some the burr created by the coarser stones is polished off. This is good because you don't want a wide,super thin "wire-edge" because that is fragile. You can align a thin wire edge with a steel or a strop, and the knife can be very sharp, but not for long.
I'm sure Yvsa will tell us where I've screwed up!
On the small chance that it may help, here's a story of shasrpening in tedious detail. Don't worry too much about the stone types, most any coarse or medium and a fine stone should work. I usually work to get a full burr on one side and then work the other side the same way until the burr completely flips over. On coarser stones I use then use a very gentle stropping stroke and easily and quickly flip the burr back over to check if I've really gotten it right.
Anyway here's the tale:
OK, so I had a 19" Kumar WWII village stye khuk I hadn't really put a good edge on. I'd given it the emory paper/mouse pad treatment and it was acceptable for chopping, but not really sharp.
From working on kardas I'd finally decided that there's no real substitute for setting and aligning an edge with stones or other large flat hard surface unless you've some power equipment. So I worked it on a fine Oregon stone until I got a nice burr that I could flip from side to side with a couple of strokes.Start with figure-8, finish with stropping motion that hits just the edge. The stone is well dished from using it on khuks without lapping it. Lazy, but it helps for convex edges to be dished. I did very slight rolling motions to hit all of the convex bevel during figure-8. Doesn't look pretty, and the honing lines are pretty confused. Used chakma to make sure edge is alligned. I used the thin edge side of the stone for the recurved part of the blade.
Go to 320 grit paper on a mouse pad and use figure 8's with light pressure, finish by stropping motions to align scratch marks so I can see what happens next. Always watch the edge to make sure effect gets all the way to the edge. The burr will act like on the stone. This was on my kitchen counter so I used the corner of the counter to hit the recurve.
Now go to 800 grit waterstone. It's also dished. Work as before. Light chakma. Then use 600 grit paper/mousepad. Always getting a full burr. After paper again all grinding marks alligned for visibility. And it smooths the bevel out again. Same figure-8 to stropping motion on both. Same as above.
Now go to 4000 water stone. This one is still flat. Concentrate on edge and 1/16 in from edge. Don't work rest of bevel. Again figure-8,to start, then use nagura stone and stropping motions. Now go to 1500 grit paper/mousepad. Be careful not to push too hard or hold a too small an angle so paper doesn't wrap around and dull the edge. Then Veritas Honing compound applied to very heavy paper/mousepad. Whole bevel now very nicely polished, and the edge is sharp.
Final finish is Flitz on the heavy paper. Very light touch. First mousepad backing hitting entire bevel , then wooden cutting board backing, stropping only, just a very few strokes on the edge. Just the weight of the khuk.
Shaves, of course, started to scrape hairs off after 800 grit water stone. But now it easily shaves the finest hairs on my inner arm and , with care to keep the weight of the knife off, I can slice a very ripe 3/4" diameter cherry tomato into 7 -8 uniform and tidy slices. It's as sharp as I've gotten a khuk so far.
I think that's pretty good for a finely polished edge on a knife this thick and I'm happy. I now plan to keep the dished coarse stones as they are, and get a second set that I'll keep lapped flat for flat grinds. The finer polishing stones don't really dish, since they need only be used a bit on the actual edge. At later stages the remainder of the bevel is easily polished at a shallow angle on the mouspad.
All burrs are not created equal. They result from pushing metal to one side. The thinner the metal the easier to push it over. A steel will mostly move metal, and a strop, unless loaded with coarse abrasive will mostly polish with less moving of metal. These are used to align and polish the edge and then keep it so. They won't do much unless a good sharp edge exists already. A burr will also naturally result from sharpening with a stone or other abrasive when it is REmoving metal all the way to the edge. If it occurrs over the whole length of the edge, you know that side has been completely done. This latter way of making the burr is what is stressed.
EDIT: correction--The steel and strop will do what they always do, it's just that if a fine even edge doesn't already exist, it won't get sharper. The steel should be used if some ding or wave puts the edge out of allignment. That way when you start removing metal, you wont get a thin spot where the ding is.
You may need to remove some metal with a coarse stone or even a file if there are thick spots on the edge.
If the edge is dull, you want to remove metal, and use the burr so created to keep track of progress. Gradually go to finer grits which will start to polish things and should lead to ever smaller burrs. Some the burr created by the coarser stones is polished off. This is good because you don't want a wide,super thin "wire-edge" because that is fragile. You can align a thin wire edge with a steel or a strop, and the knife can be very sharp, but not for long.
I'm sure Yvsa will tell us where I've screwed up!
On the small chance that it may help, here's a story of shasrpening in tedious detail. Don't worry too much about the stone types, most any coarse or medium and a fine stone should work. I usually work to get a full burr on one side and then work the other side the same way until the burr completely flips over. On coarser stones I use then use a very gentle stropping stroke and easily and quickly flip the burr back over to check if I've really gotten it right.
Anyway here's the tale:
OK, so I had a 19" Kumar WWII village stye khuk I hadn't really put a good edge on. I'd given it the emory paper/mouse pad treatment and it was acceptable for chopping, but not really sharp.
From working on kardas I'd finally decided that there's no real substitute for setting and aligning an edge with stones or other large flat hard surface unless you've some power equipment. So I worked it on a fine Oregon stone until I got a nice burr that I could flip from side to side with a couple of strokes.Start with figure-8, finish with stropping motion that hits just the edge. The stone is well dished from using it on khuks without lapping it. Lazy, but it helps for convex edges to be dished. I did very slight rolling motions to hit all of the convex bevel during figure-8. Doesn't look pretty, and the honing lines are pretty confused. Used chakma to make sure edge is alligned. I used the thin edge side of the stone for the recurved part of the blade.
Go to 320 grit paper on a mouse pad and use figure 8's with light pressure, finish by stropping motions to align scratch marks so I can see what happens next. Always watch the edge to make sure effect gets all the way to the edge. The burr will act like on the stone. This was on my kitchen counter so I used the corner of the counter to hit the recurve.
Now go to 800 grit waterstone. It's also dished. Work as before. Light chakma. Then use 600 grit paper/mousepad. Always getting a full burr. After paper again all grinding marks alligned for visibility. And it smooths the bevel out again. Same figure-8 to stropping motion on both. Same as above.
Now go to 4000 water stone. This one is still flat. Concentrate on edge and 1/16 in from edge. Don't work rest of bevel. Again figure-8,to start, then use nagura stone and stropping motions. Now go to 1500 grit paper/mousepad. Be careful not to push too hard or hold a too small an angle so paper doesn't wrap around and dull the edge. Then Veritas Honing compound applied to very heavy paper/mousepad. Whole bevel now very nicely polished, and the edge is sharp.
Final finish is Flitz on the heavy paper. Very light touch. First mousepad backing hitting entire bevel , then wooden cutting board backing, stropping only, just a very few strokes on the edge. Just the weight of the khuk.
Shaves, of course, started to scrape hairs off after 800 grit water stone. But now it easily shaves the finest hairs on my inner arm and , with care to keep the weight of the knife off, I can slice a very ripe 3/4" diameter cherry tomato into 7 -8 uniform and tidy slices. It's as sharp as I've gotten a khuk so far.
I think that's pretty good for a finely polished edge on a knife this thick and I'm happy. I now plan to keep the dished coarse stones as they are, and get a second set that I'll keep lapped flat for flat grinds. The finer polishing stones don't really dish, since they need only be used a bit on the actual edge. At later stages the remainder of the bevel is easily polished at a shallow angle on the mouspad.
- Joined
- May 18, 1999
- Messages
- 15,395
Guys I'm getting ready to leave on a trip early in the morning so I don't really have the time to walk all of you through sharpening a khuk right now, but maybe in a few days.
Just let me suffice to say this.....
Don't Worry about the %$#@$%$#@#$ Damned Edge Angle!!!!! Or the %^$#@@#$#@ Damned Original Edge!!!!
They don't mean a %%$#$#@#&^%$ Damned thing!!!!!!
There was no one around telling your great great great great great great great grandfather that he had to hold a consitent angle on a knife's edge and I damn well guarantee you he Knew how to sharpen anything that was used to cut and in those days the convex edge was KING!!!!
Left to a person's own devices they will always get a convex edge if they ignore all the hype put out by those who would make you think you have to have some damned kind of guide to hold a certain angle in order to sharpen a knife.
There's been more confusion over the khuk's edges since the kamis have went to power tools and consequently got lazy and started putting on an edge that's foreign to the khukuri.
The khukuri is supposed to have a convex edge like an axe. A khukuri is a chopper plain and simple and should be sharpened like one!!!! What makes a convex edge is to extremely large radii meeting together in a reasonably shallow arc.
Take, say a coffee can and put it on a piece of paper. Draw a line around the can about 1/4 of the way or so, it doesn't have to be real accurate. Then move the can to the other side and draw around the can to intersect the two arcs.
If you can imagine that then you know what a convex edge is. It's simple, the strongest, and the easiest edge to put on a knife, axe, hoe, hatchet or khukuri period!!!!
And anyone of you can do it period!!!!
And yes, the 5160 steel at 58-61 Rc is probably the best knife steel anyone new to the world of really good steel has used, but it damn sure ain't near as bad or near as hard as some of the new fangled stainless steels that one has to use diamonds on to sharpen.
Anyone not being able to get a burr all along one side of the edge just isn't spending enough time on that one side.
Believe me it took me years to learn that after being told hundreds of times that it was absolutely necessary to have it before I started on the other side.
The best advice to cure that problem is to use a Marks-A-Lot and mark the edge about 1/8" up, let it dry and then do what you normally do to sharpen any edge.
Where the ink has been honed off whether you're using sandpaper, a whetstone or any device is where you're trying to sharpen from.
If the ink isn't honed off the edge then you ain't doing it right so simply change the angle until the ink is honed off the edge.
Then mark it again and again until you get the burr all along the opposite side if you have to.
Only then do you go to the other side and do the same thing.
I could show all of you how to do this in maybe two minutes so guys it ain't that damned hard.
By holding the knife or hone at an angle anywhere between 10* to 20* and not trying to keep it even except how far up the side it goes you will and can sharpen anything and with most anything that's abrasive.
I used an old Oklahoma sandrock to sharpen a POS China made stainless knife for one of a Bud's kids one day.
Took me about 1/2 an hour, but that was because the knife didn't have an edge to begin with.
Come on guys you can do it, hell I learned and if I can anyone can.
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2002
- Messages
- 2,737
Yvsa,
Thanks, actually I knew I hadn't really messed up
And your'e right it's not that complicated.
Two observations:
The infamous burr is an indicator that the abrasive has done it's work all the way to edge. It's not an end in and of itself. In fact, it will all be removed later things are done right. Thats the way it should be. It's been pushed back and forth and is fatigued and fragile.
Many of the khuks don't come with an evenly ground and shaped edge. I think that's part of the problem for some people. Why keep that?? That's why I am now going over my khuks with the stones. And many other knives come with less than optimal grinds and edges. Read some of Cliff Stamp's posts. The method I described restores the nice polish on the bevel, which can vary from convex to hollow now. Even on the same khuk. The edge can still be made convex, without prominant shoulders, which is what the sandpaper/mousepad easily does.
Thanks, actually I knew I hadn't really messed up
And your'e right it's not that complicated.
Two observations:
The infamous burr is an indicator that the abrasive has done it's work all the way to edge. It's not an end in and of itself. In fact, it will all be removed later things are done right. Thats the way it should be. It's been pushed back and forth and is fatigued and fragile.
Many of the khuks don't come with an evenly ground and shaped edge. I think that's part of the problem for some people. Why keep that?? That's why I am now going over my khuks with the stones. And many other knives come with less than optimal grinds and edges. Read some of Cliff Stamp's posts. The method I described restores the nice polish on the bevel, which can vary from convex to hollow now. Even on the same khuk. The edge can still be made convex, without prominant shoulders, which is what the sandpaper/mousepad easily does.
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2002
- Messages
- 2,490
Or, for a few bucks, you could bring it into our shop (or your local sharpening place) and have it done professionally. These places have professional grinders, honers, buffing machines, etc. plus (most likely) a lot of experience with all kinds of blades. My family has been in the "grinding" business for generations, so we know what we are doing. Our guys have had to "fix" many a knife that people came in thinking they had ruined by trying to sharpen it themselves.
Brendan, listening to Yvsa helped me imensely. My only advice is this: get it as sharp as you can and walk away. If you are sharpening and sharpening and not getting it any sharper it is time to stop, decide if it has a working edge or if you need a break to examine what you are doing wrong. My khuks are still not razor sharp, but you or a paper wouldn;t want to be hit by one.
munk
munk
Good posts on the subject, I have a couple of other thoughts.
While it is fun to get a "hair popping" edge, it doesn't last once you start chopping wood. Yes, you can still shave after doing some chopping, but it takes a LOT more pressure. Some of the better steels will get back to "hair popping" with only a steeling, but repeat the cycle a few times, and it's gone. But a good steel will remain acceptably sharp for a LONG time.
Just keep things in perspective. The only thing that I am fanatical about keeping "hair popping" sharp is my straight razor, and it's edge is so delicate, accidental contact with my fingernail damaged it, taking a lot of honing to remove the nick.
I've said this before, and I'll stand by it: if you want to see how sharp your knife is, try shaving your chin. Forget your arms, legs, etc., go right now and do your chin. Trust me, it's a whole new level of sharp beyond "hair popping".
While it is fun to get a "hair popping" edge, it doesn't last once you start chopping wood. Yes, you can still shave after doing some chopping, but it takes a LOT more pressure. Some of the better steels will get back to "hair popping" with only a steeling, but repeat the cycle a few times, and it's gone. But a good steel will remain acceptably sharp for a LONG time.
Just keep things in perspective. The only thing that I am fanatical about keeping "hair popping" sharp is my straight razor, and it's edge is so delicate, accidental contact with my fingernail damaged it, taking a lot of honing to remove the nick.
I've said this before, and I'll stand by it: if you want to see how sharp your knife is, try shaving your chin. Forget your arms, legs, etc., go right now and do your chin. Trust me, it's a whole new level of sharp beyond "hair popping".
- Joined
- Jan 26, 2002
- Messages
- 2,737
Valid points indeed, swede 79!
And I agree, properly shaving your chin or neck (since I have a beard almost from the time I could grow one) is a whole 'nuther ball game. That's why special tools exist that are totally worthless for any other application when properly sharpened for the one task they are made for.
But I think that getting an edge that will push-cut newspaper most of the time, or shave an arm, or push-cut delicate vegetables is a first part of a good test. If those abilities remain or are easily restored to the blade by stropping/steeling or fine honing after chopping some wood, then the work with the coarser abrasives has been well done, and need not be repeated for a long time unless something that shouldn't have been chopped is chopped. And a lighter khuk may be asked to do more than chop, like cut twiggy stuff or reeds and grasses.
I think such things are a reasonable way to insure that a durable, well-formed and polished chopping edge are present.
On my favorite kitchen knife, I will lightly "steel" the edge with a jeweler's file to roughen it up a tiny bit if I have to slice a lot of tomatoes. For most other tasks, I polish it by stropping. But I don't chop hard stuff with that one because it's very thin.
I think if the foundation work is well-done, you can quickly fine tune the edge of any knife to do almost any job a lot better.
And I agree, properly shaving your chin or neck (since I have a beard almost from the time I could grow one) is a whole 'nuther ball game. That's why special tools exist that are totally worthless for any other application when properly sharpened for the one task they are made for.
But I think that getting an edge that will push-cut newspaper most of the time, or shave an arm, or push-cut delicate vegetables is a first part of a good test. If those abilities remain or are easily restored to the blade by stropping/steeling or fine honing after chopping some wood, then the work with the coarser abrasives has been well done, and need not be repeated for a long time unless something that shouldn't have been chopped is chopped. And a lighter khuk may be asked to do more than chop, like cut twiggy stuff or reeds and grasses.
I think such things are a reasonable way to insure that a durable, well-formed and polished chopping edge are present.
On my favorite kitchen knife, I will lightly "steel" the edge with a jeweler's file to roughen it up a tiny bit if I have to slice a lot of tomatoes. For most other tasks, I polish it by stropping. But I don't chop hard stuff with that one because it's very thin.
I think if the foundation work is well-done, you can quickly fine tune the edge of any knife to do almost any job a lot better.