Carbon Fiber Blades?

[sere_usaf]

I was just wondering if anyone had any pics of some carbon fiber blades?

I know Darrel Ralph has one that he offers over at www.combatelite.com (what inspired me to want to make one!), but I can't seem to find anymore? I just wanted to check out some of the other designs that people have offered in this material. I would like to try and come up with a design that hasn't been used with this material, but I know because of the properties of the carbon fiber, I'll be limited to designs...I think? I figure the main purpose of a knife like this would be strickly self defense....not an every day USER? But that's my opinion?

The main reason I wanted to do a project like this was so that I could actually make my own knife! (Although an unconventional knife...it's still a knife, right?) I've been itching to make a knife for a long time, but with limited resources and equipment, I've been held back. So I figure this might be a good way for me to finally put some of my ideas onto my own "canvas" so to speak?

Anyway, I was just hoping to see if anyone else has some resources I can take a look at so that I don't copy anyone elses ideas....but, at the same time seeing what's working.

Thanks for your help.

shane

 

[Ledge]

Here are a few made by Neil Blackwood. Hope this helps.

http://www.classicgunsandknives.com/knifeinfo.asp?ItemID=100778

 

[DumboRAT]

sere,

Busse's Frequent Flier, if I recall correctly, was also CF....

If you'll head over to the Usual Suspects Network, there is a Knifemakers Forum in which Neil Blackwood maintains his own section. He is very open to discussing his "lessons learned" in the making of his wonderful CF creations. He's currently out at SHOT, but the old threads remain on the Forum, and he is scheduled to return on the 18th.



Allen
aka DumboRAT

 

[satin]

Shane - carbon fiber is easy to work, but dangerous - you need to take some precautions. Wear a respirator, the dust is very fine fine splinters that can (and will) get down in your lungs, and cause myriad problems due to the toxicity of the phenolic matrix and generally make breathing a sh*tty business. Wear eye protection, any kind of splinter in the eyes sucks, but CF dust/splinters make it easy to happen.
I've done a lot of C/F blades, and my standard procedure is to grind wearing thin cotton gloves, to keep the dust out of my hands, a $25 3M respirator (cheap but works perfectly), a full face shield that presses around my forehead to keep dust from sliding down, and a "do-rag" over my hair.
The dust is nasty stuff.

Carbon Fiber has a limited cutting ability and almost no edge retention. It is superior to other Phenolic based synthetics such as G-10 and Micarta, and much superior to plastics such as Zytel.
The reason for the cutting ability is that individual micro-fibers of the carbon weave break off along the thinnest areas, I.E. the edge, and create a micro-serration effect of little barbs.
This allows carbon fiber, in a plain edge format, to make several deep cuts into flesh and meat, with an effectiveness near that of sharp steel, but with each cut those little fibers/barbs break fully off remaining stuck in the wound (why you cant make a CF kitchen knife, you'd end up eating the fibers), and the blade eventually dulls.

It will make a few initial cuts to exposed flesh, but when trying to get through fabrics/clothing, thrusting is ideal - and because of the limited edge holding and the ability of a thrust to easily reach vital organs, thrusting/stabbing should be your main attack using the blade for defense.

CF is strong, for such a light-weight material - but I have had better luck with making the points a little thicker than I might with steel, on some designs, because it is not as strong as steel and they can break - although they wont round off like G-10 can.

The point on this prototype of mine is a little fragile in CF, in steel it would be fine, but in CF is may break - not enough to impede much during defensive use though.
But, if you look at this -

You can see that the point is thicker, but doesnt really hurt the blades ability much. (P.S. to others viewing this thread that La Griffe is a one of a kind, I had Fred Perrin's permission to make it and no I will not be making another one - dont ask )

I like to work with 1/4" CF and not much thinner - as I rarely put scales onto CF pieces, I find its thin enough to carry well, thick enough to still feel okay in the hand, and thick enough to be strong enough for repeated thrusting.
Even on designs like the two above where 1/8" Steel would cut it, with C/F I just feel better with the extra thickness.

Serrations *can* help cutting ability somewhat - but the points will eventually roun a little on them decreasing their ability. Its not so much cutting as tearing, but it works and can outlast the plain-edge fiber-mico-serration effect if you're using it right.
I work with a lot of edge-in reverse grip for defense, which allows hooking and shearing of an opponents limb (very nasty and effective), and I like to put serrations on CF knives where they will see use in that role.

Based on the classic Wanner/Taylor Warrior design (first made by Al Mar, then scaled down and made as the Hobbit Warrior by REKAT, who made IIRC 16 full-sized models called the Gaijin) in the Hobbit size, the inside edge (in reverse grip, the back edge of the knife) is used to hook and shear limbs, something the serrations there will be good at on a CF piece like this.

Dont make it too thin, dont drill a bunch of holes in it if it can be helped (you will see on the La Griffe its much thicker around the hole than on the steel models), dont make the point too thin, and dont make the edge too thin (it can chip out) and you should be cool.
Be safe, wear the protective gear or dont work CF - its fun to work, I really like it, one of my favourite materials, but you just gotta be careful.

 

[satin]

Originally posted by DumboRAT
Busse's Frequent Flier, if I recall correctly, was also CF....

No. I dont remember what it was, a synthetic that is no longer made because of its being extremely carcenogenic to manufacture or to work or both - definately not CF.
It wasnt called the Frequent Flyer either was it?

Mad Dog's synthetic knife is called the FF I know, but its not CF either - its McClung's supposedly superior G-10 type laminate, never handled or used one so I cant say if it is or it isnt.


One more tip for working C/F - go to an art supply store and get a spray can of fixative used by Pastel artists to keep their work from getting smudged, ask the people working there, they will know what it is - after you grind and put the final finish on the knife, and get it sheathed, spray it with a coating of this stuff.
Clean it, wipe it dry, lay it on a flat (clean) surface, and spray all the exposed areas - get a flat, even coating, not too thick, and let it alone for a couple hours so it will dry - then go turn it over and do the same thing.
Then put your final edges on it.
The fixative acts as a sealer and prevents fiber break-off on the handles, and any place other than the edges, so the user wont pick up splinters of fhis/her own knife, which can occasionally happen.
I always round the edges that arent meant to be sharp, the handles, the un-sharpened spine, the guards, etc. on my knives, especially on CF, and polish them up good and tight grained with like 800 to 1000 grit wet/dry paper, and thenw ith the sealer over that it'll be perfect.

Unfortunately to be safe for the user, splinter free, CF has to be highly polished, so it doesnt have much traction, even if you do something like put Gunner-Grip style texturing on it, its still gotta be smoothed and sealed making it less effective - handle designs that offer good retention, with finger holes, deep grooves, and hand holding shapes are thus very desirable - as may be cord-wrapping or using micarta rod to pin on thin G-10 scales which can be safely textured.

When sheathing smaller pieces with kydex I epoxy the sheaths and then drill holes and stitch them with heavier black waxed linen cord, or a very light kernmantle cord, to keep them togather, and retain non-metallic attributes. With larger pieces I use nylon chicago screws from someplace like McMaster-Carr.
If you dont want complete non-metallic attributes, dont worry about pinning with micarta rod stock, and using only non-metal sheathing components, use whatever you like.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

The Busse Stealth Hawk

 

[T. Erdelyi]

Check out Warren Thomas's Knives, he did a lot of work with CF.

 

[Emanuel]

Satin,
G-10 is not phenolic based.

It uses a glass cloth reinforcement in an Epoxy matrix system.

Micarta's resin system on the other hand is indeed phenolic based.

CF and G-10 are in a league of their own. Personally I feel more secure using G-10 though, it doesn't break as easily as CF(not as brittle, although G-10 is not as stiff too), and since they both have less than good edge retention capabilities that's why I prefer G-10 over CF.

Like G-10, CF is also epoxy resin based. Only difference is that Cf uses a different reinforcement material, Carbon/graphite(95%) Fiber sheets, as opposed to G-10's glass cloth.

sheesh, that's a mouth full!

 

[dayuhan13]

Originally posted by satin

Based on the classic Wanner/Taylor Warrior design (first made by Al Mar, then scaled down and made as the Hobbit Warrior by REKAT, who made IIRC 16 full-sized models called the Gaijin) in the Hobbit size, the inside edge (in reverse grip, the back edge of the knife) is used to hook and shear limbs, something the serrations there will be good at on a CF piece like this.

Satin,

That is AWESOME! I always thought the design would make a great integral or skeleton in steel. CF was something I never thought about but since seeing yours, it's well worth considering. Is that knife something still offered or available for purchase? I like to have one!

Dayuhan

 

[satin]

Dayuhan - email coming.

Emanuel - thanks for the info, I thought the epoxy matrix for G-10 was a phenolic.

 

[Megalobyte]

I have one of the CF Blackwood Henchmans, as was said, this isnt a utility knife, so edge retention isnt a factor, I dont plan on repeatedly needing to stab people.

I love it as a neck knife because its rustproof, light as a feather, and it will do what I need it to if ever called upon.

Plus Neil uses thast way cool F-18 CF with a larger weave pattern, and the optical qualities are appealing.

Neil chisel grinds the edge for strength.

 

[satin]

I love that F-18 CF - thats what all four of the pieces you see in my post are made of. Great stuff, I think it works better than the regular stuff, and I like its blade-properties better too.

That Henchman is a real beauty, love that design, and it just kicks ass in carbon fiber.
Nice score.

 

[TLM]

Phenolic resin dust is indeed not healhty but carbon fiber dust is no more so than most other dusts of a hard substance. For maximum cutting efficiency the fibers right at the edge plane should be at 90 or +- 45 angle, the outer surfaces should be 0 for maximum strength and stiffness.

If you can get hold of some boron fiber that would give you better cutting ability if placed at the edge (just take an out of service F-14 and do some disassembly ).

TLM

 

[DumboRAT]

Esav and satin.....

That wasn't the one...oh crap, now I'm really gonna have to dig, LOL. Thanks for the correction to the both of you.

-- Edit --

Ah-ha ! Found it !

Mad Dog Frequent Flier -- that's the one ..... but come to think of it, I don't think it's CF. Anyone remember?

Since Megalobyte brought up my favorite CF knife, I have to put in my word for Neil's work as well. I took delivery of a twin mosaic pin CF (F-18) Melee this past summer/fall, and my opinion of it is much the same as Megalos. Specifically, as an enthusiast, the "optical depth" of this weave is just amazing, especially out in the sun.

As for utility?

Neil made his for when he's out on the bike. A light-weight, corrosion resistant piece that can serve as a last-ditch SD tool with a few good stabs and slices -- it's definitely a very, very specialized tool indeed.

CF-splintered Mad Cow tenderloin for dinner, anyone?

To wit, Neil still complains about sneezing up hunks of CF......

Allen
aka DumboRAT

PS: satin, are you still making those little CF neckers? Way cool !

 

[satin]

I'm still making carbon fiber blades of a few types - almost everything I have done in CF to date is a one-off, or a unique variation of a previous piece. Lots of smaller, neck size pieces. Will someday be making more of the non-la griffe finger-hole thing I posted a pic of, in both steel and CF, if thats the one you meant.

Right now .25" carbon fiber is in short supply so I havent been able to make anything new lately Sucks. But, gives me time to work on steel... I'm behind enough on steel projects as it is

 

[satin]

Originally posted by DumboRAT
Mad Dog Frequent Flier -- that's the one ..... but come to think of it, I don't think it's CF. Anyone remember?

Its MAd Dog's own proprietary G11 type composite.

 

[DumboRAT]

Gotcha ! Thanks

Allen
aka DumboRAT

 

[Vampire Gerbil]

Howdy!
Here's a picture of a Mad Dog Frequent Flyer:
http://www.mdenterprise.com/frequent.htm
This one was selling for about $180, but I'm sure you can find them for less.MD Also states that they'll omly sell this blade to police of military. How strict they are with this policy, I dnno (Like switchblades, ya know?)

Satin's qite right about the knife's composition. Mad Dog won't tell ya if ya ask, but looking at the one I have, it looks like a cross between g-10 and carbon fiber.

Hope that helps,
VG

 

[Emanuel]

MD Also states that they'll omly sell this blade to police of military. How strict they are with this policy, I dnno (Like switchblades, ya know?)

I'm pretty sure he's very strict with that.

----------------------
BTW, VG/Dave, great to see you're ok!
We missed ya!

 

[Vampire Gerbil]

Anyhow...
Hiya Emanuel! It's me, VG!!

Hiya everyone else.... I'm VG.
Anyhow, when Evil Gerbil takes over my brain and that pice of dried cantelope I keep next to it, I haven't faied getting a swith (And I'm really assuming Mad Dog too) by showin' / faxin' the guy my Armed Guard ID and that's got my pic on it. To the unknowing, I keep my hair hi and tight and more people at my former job took me for a sworn officer more than not.(I always corrected 'em though)
But back to my little tail,my IDs and personal presence have always cleared the path way for me.
OK, OK, I'm a bad boy, but considering all the other stuff I was carrying back then (Glock 21 w 3 original hi cap 13 round magazines, the chances of me ever doing something bad and criminalistickle with one of these not allowed blades used by me to slice or skin someone are quite silly. In fact, I'll go 2 steps further and say, me the chances of me harming someone the way I was just described, it's much more likely that one morning I wake up to find a family of Chines acrobats living in my digestive system.....
Well, you know what that's like.
Anyhow,I think I got off topic somewhere just a tad, so here's a picture of a relatively inexpensive blade with sheath that I got (and can still get 'em I guess) of a G-10 (Shiv)
Ya wanna know more, email me at my email address.
Here are the pic (The pack of smokes are there to show relative size..... I'm not allowed to play with any devices that measure things)
Ready?
Sure ya are!!!!!
Look!

It runs about $50 or so, so if that ain't ain't a problem for, again, feel free to email me at where that place my email place and I'll find out all the info I can.

OK, back hurts again it hurts and I'm crying like a baby without another human being around to pat me on the tush to say "There there, VG, It's ok." and stuff like that so I'll all ak and whatnot.

Fare theewell all,
IB VG