Check those detents! A study of two cases.

[R.W.Clark]

I was contacted by the Public Defenders Office and asked to meet with the Deputy DA to inspect two knives being held on two seperate cases. Both defendants were arrested for the same crime (653k switchblade), in the same city and in the same week.

Both knives were liner locking, single hand opening folders with thumb studs. One (People v. Hudson) was a half serrated clip point hunter from Sheffield MFG. The other (People v.Larragoipiy) was a half serrated drop point American Tanto of Chinese make. Both could be opened with a strong "flip of the wrist". Mechanically these were almost exactly the same knife. However there was a 1/32" differance that made these cases end VERY differant for the defendants.

The Hudson knife had a functioning detent so it met the exemption clause in 653k. On the other side; not only did the Larragoipiy knife not have a functioning detent, it never had a detent to begin with. So, no detent no exemption, it (by the letter of the law) was a switchblade!

I showed all this to the D.A. and presented her with all my paperwork to back up my claims. The next day I filed my reports with both offices. The outcome was that all charges against Hudson were dropped. People v. Larragoipiy was settled out of court. Luckily the D.A. aggreed to only 10 days community service. She could have pressed for a full year in jail!

 

[dsvirsky]

Good work, Ron. Although, I suppose, it would have been even better if the LEO who arrested Mr./Ms. Hudson had understood the legal significance of a functioning detent on that knife.

 

[supertool200]

Hi,
I have a BM556, Spyderco Endura and CS Voyager..do they have functioning detents? How can I verify? Just trying to be on the safe side. Thanks

 

[R.W.Clark]

The BM556, Endura and Voyager do not have detents. The good new is they don't need them.

Detents only exist in frame and liner locking folders. Lock backs and Axis locks use a differant method for biasing a blade toward closed.

I really hated to call the Larragoipiy knife a switchblade. By all rightfull means it really was not. But to keep my credibilty I was forced to follow the letter of the law and that knife just gave me no wiggle room at all.

 

[steve007]

Hi R.W. Clark,

Does either the bladetech professional hunter or the columbia river knife and tool m-16 have detents? Thank you very much for your help!

 

[R.W.Clark]

Not having handled those knives I can't say for sure but seeing that the M16 line was designed by Kit Carson I am sure it does. Any decent folder will have them just make sure that they are still working.

Where you will run into troubles are the Chinese cheapies and the cable "knife show" bundle O' knives.

 

[stevekt]

RW,

What aboout Opinels? They do not have any sort of spring or detent to give them "bias toward closure" however they do have locking rings which can lock the blade closed. I have only handled one Opinel and due to the tension in the pivot (and the extremely light blade) it was impossible to wrist flick open. If an Opinel were to be broken in to the point where it could be flicked open could that legally classify it as a switchblade? Would the locking ring cover the "bias toward closure"?

 

[R.W.Clark]

I have thought about that issue alot. I just have not come to an answer that I am really happy with. You and I both know, that in truth, it is in no way a switchblade. However, I think that per the letter of the law a slick D.A. could twist things to make it fit 653k.

I guess the answer is, I just don't know how the courts would see that one. Sorry.

 

[ld57]

I was contacted by the Public Defenders Office and asked to meet with the Deputy DA to inspect two knives being held on two seperate cases.

Wow! That's very interesting, thanks for the post.
You know, it would seem to me that any law that would need a professional knifemaker to be called in to help decide if that law had been broken probably needs a re-write.
Have you ever run across a case where someone was arrested for carrying one of your knives?

 

[R.W.Clark]

The exemption clause in 653k, which was sponsored by the AKTI, is very clearly written. It just requires an above average knowledge of knife construction.

When I first started working as an expert witness, I thought that everyone who carried knives knew what a detent was or what bias towards closed meant. Now I understand that not even all knife lovers really understand these things. So it is no surpise that LEOs, Public Defenders, D.A. and Judges don't understand the meanings of these words.

So it is not that the law is unclear, it is that all parties involved have to be educated as to the meaning of the wording of the law.

 

[Bayoublaster]

Is this a California law you're talking about?

 

[stevekt]

RW,

Would a stiff pivot cover bias toward closure? If the second knife mentioned (the one without a detent) had their pivot screw tightened and loctited and could not be writst flicked open would that have met the exemption clause?

 

[R.W.Clark]

Yes, 653K is CA penal code.

Yes, if the pivot was tight to the point where it could not be flicked open then there would have been no issue. The danger there is how tight is tight enough? It is a subjective standard based on the skills of the person doing the "flipping". So if you make the knife tight enough that you can't open it but the officer is more skilled and can still open it, then it is still illegal.

That is why the exemption clause was put in place. It makes a knife legal/illegal based on features not performance. Unfortunatly we are having problems getting the LEOs and DAs to see it that way.

 

[tom19176]

I am going to ask the stupid question of what exactly is a detent. I was a LEO in NY for several years and I am a collector for over 30 years, but that term is not used in NY to define gravity knives. I have found that almost any knife can be a gravity knife in the right hands ( at least by the NY definition).

 

[R.W.Clark]

A detent is a ball type device that acts as a catch to hold the blades of liner and frame locking folders into thier closed positions. They act in the same manner as a ball catch that you might find in the cabinets of audio video equipment. I have included a photo of the detent in a Kershaw frame lock.

 

[R.W.Clark]

Your next point is well taken.

The mis-application of definitions has become a major issue in todays courts and laws. A gravity knife is a very specific item. For a knife to be a true gravitiy knife, the blade MUST travel from its fully closed and locked position to its fully open and locked position by gravity acting on the weight of the blade alone. There are no true gravity knives on the market today that I can think of.

The courts, in their great wisdom, have included "enertia" knives in the same class as gravity knives. This is where a large problem comes from. Enertia knives use both gravity and the enertia of the user swinging the knife to "fling" the blade out of the handle. This is the "flip of the wrist" that PC 653k speaks of.

This leads us to another problem. The problem here is that it is subjective since it does not spell out how much energy is required to classify as a enertia knife. We all know that almost every knife blade can be opened if enough energy is applied. So without a set amout of energy spelled out it becomes a matter of skill. This makes all such laws arbitrary. Arbitrary and subjective laws are unconstitutional as there is no set standard for their application.

 

[tom19176]

Thank you for the picture and the details. I know what you mean. but had never heard that word before and I did not realize that a law actually used that detail to define a type of knife. The NY laws are fairly vague and the courts will often dismiss charges on simple possession charges, but the "new" idea is to arrest anyone with a weapon in NYC, not as true elsewhwere in the state. I have been out of active inforcement for a few years, but one of my close friends has moved well uo the command ladder and he still has a hard time clearly stateing what is a legal pocket knife......

 

[tom19176]

There was one knife of US orgin that would be a true gravity knife. It was made in a very limited run with the "Colt" brand name on it, and it was a copy of the German para trooper knife in the modern 8" open size. This is what I would consider a true gravity knife that by design will allow a blade to "fall" open from the handle after a lever has been release and the handle pointed downward or a small amount of force is used. The one factor most people are not aware with this knife ( which is not true of the older larger ones) is that it had a safety design built in that the blade would not remain in the open position if enough pressure was applied to the point of the blade. I have a few of these from Gernamy and this is true, in that if you attempt to stab a piece of wood, the blade will retract into the handle. This was to safe guard a para trooper who fell on a open blade. I would think this would put this form of a gravity knife in a interesting spot as it does not true lock open for stabbing uses. There are a few old German and several Korean-China knock offs that are true gravity knives that I think most state laws and definitely the federal law where truly seeking to define and prohibit these forms of knives. All lock backs and liner locks have fallen victim to a loose definition of a gravity knife.

 

[R.W.Clark]

I did not know that about the para-trooper knives. That is very interesting.

Yes, there were several copies made after the war (most likely into the 1970s) but I have never seen one for sale other than original German pieces, and those are collector knives now.

 

[the possum]

Just out of curiosity, when you file a report of your opinion to both sides, do you have any sort of leeway to include your personal opinion aside from the letter of the law? As in, something like, "Technically speaking, by the letter of the law this knife falls under the definition of switchblade. However, it is my personal opinion that it was never designed as a true switchblade, and was merely constructed poorly," or something like that? Can you offer any sort of advice at all besides a strict reading of the law?

As a side note, my old Benchmade Ares (axis lock) and even my Puma folder (lockback) could have been called gravity knives. In both cases, simply pressing the lock bar would allow the blade to fall out and into the fully open position under gravity alone.

Think how much easier things would be, and how much more sense it would make if we just repealed the stupid switchblade laws completely.