Classic Black Powder Pistols?

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Sid Post

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Oct 14, 1998
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I'm interested in the old style classic Black Powder pistols. I have been trying to find an old Dragoon and a New Army model.

This site looks promising: Uberti 1848 Dragoon

And I was curious about the Ruger products: Ruger Old Army .45 caliber cap-and-ball revolver

I am looking for a quality pistol or two at a moderate price with good quality. I am willing to pay more for quality. I am also looking for general recreation and enjoyment with no specific plans for SASS or any other style of formal competition. I need everything from general information to help selecting a good pistol.

Looking around the web only turned up inactive forums so, if I missed the "bladeforums" of black powder, please point my sights in the right direction. ;)
 
I havn't burned any charcoal for a long time, but it seems there are large numbers of quality reproductions out there. The Ruger cap & ball weapons are excellent (I almost bought one), of course, made with modern materials and techniques. Not "traditional", of course, so it would probably not be allowed in the typical civil-war skirmish shoots.

I had a Navy-style .44 and .36 years ago, both of Italian manufacture, and they both seemed well made and reliable. They are a lot of fun to shoot, and not quite as much fun to clean. Nowdays, of course, you have Pyrodex, which helps a lot.

I always wanted one of the big Walker pistols, the .357 magnum of it's day. (very similar ballistics, as I recall)
 
Josey Wales (at least in the movie -- I don't know about the book it was based on) carried four much smaller revolvers. A Walker Colt is a very big gun -- four of them would weigh nearly 20 pounds loaded (9kg) and if you stuck one in your waistband the barrel would go down almost to your knee.
 
Cougar Allen said:
Josey Wales (at least in the movie -- I don't know about the book it was based on) carried four much smaller revolvers. A Walker Colt is a very big gun -- four of them would weigh nearly 20 pounds loaded (9kg) and if you stuck one in your waistband the barrel would go down almost to your knee.
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When the Walkers were introduced they were called saddle guns or pommel guns because they were not meant to be carried on you belt. Josey could get away with it because it was in the script:D


http://www.art.com/asp/sp-asp/_/pd--10103986/sp--A/Clint_Eastwood_The_Outlaw_Josey_Wales.htm

these pistols in the pic look suspiciously large and have the pointed lever for reloading, there are several seens in the movie which show the reloading lever thingy( I don’t know correct term) hanging down, which was a fault along with poor steel in some. They were also known for blowing up in your hand. I think around 1000 were made.
 
It's been a while since I've seen the movie. I was sure I remembered his guns being smaller, but looking at those posters they don't look small at all. I guess my memory is deficient. :confused:
 
Cougar Allen said:
It's been a while since I've seen the movie. I was sure I remembered his guns being smaller, but looking at those posters they don't look small at all. I guess my memory is deficient. :confused:
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I think just two were Walkers and the other two were smaller but I havent seen the movie in a long time either, I need to go buy it:D
 
I read the book and saw the movie THE OUTLAW JOSIE WALES.
The book followed the movie so closely I think they wrote the screenplay first and then the book.

I don't want to mislead anyone, but I think they called the class of handguns represented by the Walker "Horse Pistols" because they weighed too much for a man to carry on his person as a regular practice.
I think a person should think of the Walker as a carbine without a shoulder stock.
Walker's cavalry carried them in saddle scabbards, only on their horses, and not in personal holsters.

Three revolvers epitomize the black powder revolver, for me, and only one qualifies as a true combat revolver:

1) the Colt 1849 Pocket; Colt made more of these small revolvers than any other handgun Colt made; people carried them on the California Gold Rush; Colt perfected the revolver design that he used through 1862 with these revolvers;

2) the Colt 1851 Navy; the first true combat revolver, and still worthy; Wild Bill Hickock carried two of them; a scaled up version of the 1849 Pocket, this revolver has only five necessary moving parts; and,

3) the Colt 1862 Pocket Police; a scaled-down Colt 1860 Army; probably the most aesthetically pleasing firearm ever built and a true man-stopper despite its diminutive size.

http://www.uberti.com/firearms/pocket-revolvers.tpl

http://www.uberti.com/firearms/pocket-revolvers.tpl

http://www.uberti.com/firearms/1862-pocket-navy.tpl
 
A friend of mine had a Ruger and loved it. He also recommended Remington styles over the Colts because of the solid frame. I had a Navy Arms 1861 Navy .36 (same size as the 1851, but with a fluted cylinder and a rounded barrel similar to the 1860 Army). Sights on Colt styles are crude with a capital C, and the cylinder stop spring broke after a short while (it was cheap and easy to replace). I really liked shooting it, although it would get pretty gunked up after 18 rounds.

I once got to handle a pair of original 1860 Colt Army .44s. One was a full fluted cylinder in excellent shape, and the other a not as nice round cylinder. The owner had a letter from Colt that his brother had sent for in the 1930s. He would not give an asking price, as he wanted to take bids from anyone who was interested. How I would have love to get the fluted one.

If you buy a Colt replica, you'll have to hum Steve Earle's "The Devil's Right Hand" while you shoot it ;) :D
 
IIRC in the outlaw josie wales he carried 1860 armys on his belt and a 1849 pocket model in a shoulder holster.

an easy way to tell a walker is it doesnt have a latch for the loading lever under the bbl, its a friction fit i presume, they will drop down when ya fire the thing FWIW(the loading lever).

the big pistols which were most often carried in saddle holsters were colts dragoons, many many more of these were made vs the walker colt. but they were similar, kinda an improved walker. in real life i doubt they made a thousand walkers.

the ruger cap & ball is a great gun, very heavy duty, modern internals, lots better sites, it could probably take almost a walker powder charge, only con to it imho is it doesnt really look period correct, looks too "modern" for me, i like black powder stuff to be based on the old designs, my 2 favs are an 1851 navy and the 1860 army.

i met a guy in the late 60's who turned me on to BP guns, he had a flintlock rifle and a 1851 navy, they were cheap then, wayy less than $100 (pistols anyway) and i've had a lot of fun thru the yrs with them, i have an old navy arms catalog (circa 1970) and its only like 10 pages total, times have changed. i have had an 1851 navy and currently have a 1860 army and a zouave rifle both from navy arms.
 
Got the Ruger, and it's great. It probably wouldn't pass muster for any type of re-enactment though.

I've handled and fired my friend's Navy Colt. I've never had any other firearm feel so natural in my hand. He's not a gun guy, but would never part with it as it was his father's.

Dave
 
My vote goes for the '51 Navy (.36 cal).

Great point shooting, lighter recoil, etc.

The Old Army in stainless is great too. Powerful enough for deer, as are the Dragoons. But a synch to clean.
 
I love the stainless ruger and would start with a ruger... learn and if you get serious about traditional get one of the more traditional then. You could also see if there is a black powder club in your area... That ruger is accurate and you can get it with adjustable sights. It is alot more fun shooting if you can hit what ya aim at!
 
some of the old colts are plenty accurate too, i used to shoot rabbits with mine (1851 .36) all the time, it shot pretty much dead on, most of the period correct ones i have shot do shoot high though, which is easy enough to correct i guess.

admittedly though the rugers are gonna be more accurate.

back when i did a lot of BP shooting i would take the '51 completely apart to clean it (internals and all) is that how you guys clean yours or do ya just clean the bbl and such? am sure taking the things apart all the time probably is hard on the sear/etc but how else do ya clean out the inside? i simply got a blow up of the thing and learned to take it apart, which was really pretty easy. and only took it apart every 2nd or 3rd cleaning or so, they get pretty dirty lol.

yes i know the SS rugers wouldnt need that, but do wonder about the std replicas in that regard.
 
SIFU1A said:
some of the old colts are plenty accurate too, i used to shoot rabbits with mine (1851 .36) all the time, it shot pretty much dead on, most of the period correct ones i have shot do shoot high though, which is easy enough to correct i guess.

admittedly though the rugers are gonna be more accurate.

back when i did a lot of BP shooting i would take the '51 completely apart to clean it (internals and all) is that how you guys clean yours or do ya just clean the bbl and such? am sure taking the things apart all the time probably is hard on the sear/etc but how else do ya clean out the inside? i simply got a blow up of the thing and learned to take it apart, which was really pretty easy. and only took it apart every 2nd or 3rd cleaning or so, they get pretty dirty lol.

yes i know the SS rugers wouldnt need that, but do wonder about the std replicas in that regard.
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I shoot BP blanks out of two stainless Ruger Vaqueros, when I am done I just clean them with WD-40 usually. I really doubt they get as dirty as full BP load though. If I am not shooting balloons off horses with them, I don’t mess with BP. I shoot modern .45 LC stuff
 
SIFU1A said:
IIRC in the outlaw josie wales he carried 1860 armys on his belt and a 1849 pocket model in a shoulder holster.

an easy way to tell a walker is it doesnt have a latch for the loading lever under the bbl, its a friction fit i presume, they will drop down when ya fire the thing FWIW(the loading lever).
Click to expand...
If you look in the photos from the movie the guns that Josie uses do not have a latch for the loading lever.

Also my girlfriend just got back from the High Noon Western American Show & Auction that was in Phoenix. On page 52 of the catalogue of items up for auction is item # 214 Josie Wales Walker and screen props
Walker serial # 892 with left hand belt holster

Molded rubber gun with same serial number and a second rubber walker that was suspended from the saddle horn, the gun belt is also listed.

on the same page is item #213 which is the 1860 movie colt with cartridge conversion, this is the gun he dug out of the ashes in the beginning of the film.
 
wow thats correct, it is a walker, i have an old print of clint holding 2 pistols out of TOJW, about 15 ft from my PC, if i woulda just looked up lol,
 
It is true, Clint Eastwood had two Walker Dragoons in that film. The only other time that I can remember seeing one featured in a film was the movie, "True Grit" where Kim Darby as Mattie Ross had her father's old Walker Dragoon and the John Wayne character, Marshal Rooster Cogburn, has some nasty things to say about their weight and recoil. Wayne won an Oscar for that film, but he SHOULD have won one for "The Searchers", a much darker but better film.

The pistol that you need to buy is the Navy Arms reproduction of the LeMat Grapeshot revolver. The original was a 9 shot .42 caliber revolver whose cylinder revolved around a 28 guage shotgun barrel. When you had fired all of the rounds in your cylinder, you then switched the hammer end down and fired the shotgun barrel which you had loaded with buckshot. The Navy Arms version is .44 cal. and it revolves around a 20 guage shotgun barrel. Otherwise, it is a good copy. J.E.B. Stuart loved his LeMat and had just emptied it at the Yankees when he was shot and killed by one of Custer's Wolverines at Yellow Tavern in 1864. Another Confederate general who carried a LeMat and liked it was P.G.T. Beauregard. Here is a link to a page that shows a Navy LeMat for sale:
http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976681060.htm

BTW, I have one. When I was a kid, I saw one in a museum in Richmond and swore that I would have one someday and now, thanks to Navy Arms, I do. It is a nace shooter, if a tad awkward to load.
 
There was a TV show with a hero who used a LeMat. Just about every episode had a scene with the bad guys counting to six shots and saying, "He's empty -- let's rush him!" and getting blown away with the shotgun barrel.
 
it was a 3rd model dragoon not a walker in true grit, there is a differnce.

the lemat is cool, if i woulda lived in the 1860's i woulda had to have one.
 
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