Cliff any chance of a review of the TOPS Magnum & Spyderco Chinook?

Joined
Sep 23, 1999
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Cliff, the TOPS Magnum and Spyderco Chinook seem to be two tough looking folders that are in need of your "gentle touch";)
Any chance one or both of these might get a reveiw from you in the near future?

I really would like to see how "tough" these folders really are?

Also how about a MOD Dieter CQD, just curious as to which if any of these are the real deal and what is just a lot of hype:rolleyes:

Also thanks for your contribution to this forum, I really enjoy the information and it always makes for a good read.

Troy
 
The TOPS magnum has a liner lock and is not what I would want in a heavy use knife because the security is fairly low. In short they are not stable under a variety of situations such as tight grips, light spine impacts and blade torquing. See the Buck/Strider and Spyderco Military review for details.

The Chinook has a very nice handle, and the lock has tested very strong. However I would not want a short sabre hollow grind on a folder. The blade strength is probably excessive, as the handle is probably the weak point. If Spyderco has tested this, correct me if I am wrong. The sabre grind also throws away too much deep cutting ability. I might pick up this blade however just to work with the CPM-440V steel at the lower hardness.

The MOD folder stands out very strong, I have heard good things about the strength and security of the lock. The handle looks comfortable and secure (that can be hard to judge though), and the glass breaker and web cutter look interesting. If the blade steel wasn't ATS-34, I probably would have bought it already. It would be nice to see a tool steel version with a high quality coating.

The Benchmade Axis in M2 looks to be at the top of the current heavy use folder market, no direct experience with it however. The Mission MPF is also up there, there are however similar problems with integrals as with liner locks.

-Cliff
 
Cliff,

I'd be curious for you to try out the TOPS knife, to hear what you think. Your technical reviews provide a great balance to some of our "real world use" reviews for a nice overall picture.

The liner lock on the TOPS is thick, heat-treated stainless. We beat the spine hard in the woods, on a log, and couldn't get it to fail. We did all sorts of torquing, and still no release. It's the only liner lock I've had this kind of luck with. The handle is thick aircraft aluminum, with no flex (I've found that flexing always seems to happen on titanium liners and handles). You can open it with the thumb stud even with thick winter gloves on (or just snap it open). Because of the size of the handle, I've found it very difficult to get my hand in there in a way that releases the lnier accidentally. Also, this liner locks up TIGHT! You have to use quite a bit of muscle just to release it. I suppose it'll probably get smoother from micro-level removal of material due to friction (how's that for pop-physics terms?! :D) Before this knife, I was very very leery of liner locks (many have failed, and I have a few finger scars. It's why I became a "fixed-blade only" fan. This one is the first to change my mind. Now, I certainly have not used every liner lock on the market, so I can't say this is the only one that is strong. It's just the only one so far I've found.

Cliff, in your experience, is titanium simply a more flexible metal? Seems like Ti is good to avoid breakage, but not good in terms of slippage... could this be a big reason for so many liner lock failures? I'm not up to speed completely on my metallurgy. I can only provide my experiences with the blades (I'm an anecdotal kinda guy).

All the Best,

Bian.
 
Brian :

is titanium simply a more flexible metal?

Than stainless - yes, very much so. The advantage to Titanium is the light weight, however the problem with many Ti liners is that they are similar in size to the steel ones and are therefore much weaker.

Regarding the folder is this the knife :

http://www.parfilex.cz/noze/tops/cqtmag.jpg

Is that the liner that is visible along the front part of the curvature? If it is that is an immediate problem, the only way that liner locks are secure under tight grips is if they are recessed below the level that your skin can reach.

In regards to the blade profile, as noted in the above, a heavy sabre grind seems like overkill to me on a short blade. Even with a fixed blade of that length I would prefer a full grind, for a folder it seems far to excessive. Especially considering the strength of a high alloy stainless steel like ATS-34.

I appreciate the comments, but based on my past experience with liner locks they don't have the necessary security I would want and I have used some of the best thought of ones, including sending them back for adjustement to make sure they were at optimal. As well there is the wealth of information from guys like Joe Talmadge and Steve Harvey who have looked at many more liner locks that I have seen, and who have also addressed one of the worst problems which is sudden failure in a lock that was tested and found stable previously.

However your experience is enough to make me curious about the TOPS folder, I have popped enough liner locks and damaged other mechanisms under far less stress than you have described. I'll keep a look out for one on the secondary market.

-Cliff
 
It's interesting to me that there hasn't been much discussion on the CQT Magnum. I ran a search. Although liner locks seem to be less popular among forumites nowadays, there are still many folks looking for a large folder of any lock type. Witness the attention the SERE 2000 received. Is the reason for the lack of interest, the lack of TOPS dealers? Other than S4supply, I don't know of a TOPS internet dealer. With a weight of 11oz, the CQT seems to be a beast. If it could be had for about the price of a BM710 in M2, I'd guess there would be more takers.
 
Hi, Cliff,

The picture is of the knife, yes -- except that mine is hunter's point instead of tanto. The way I use a knife in the woods, or in general, makes the sabre grind good for me because it acts like a wedge for heavy work. So, I actually like the sabre grind (as long as the graduation down to the edge is less severe, like the TOPS CQT).

It's hard for me to tell by that picture, but holding my knife right now, the liner does not go below the plane of the bottom of the handle. It is exposed from the side by the cut out, but that's what I was referring to above, when I said the handle is thick enough that your hand can't really get in there to disengage.

AF,

TOPS mostly does business with the international law enforcement and military community. The company is only four or five years old. They are now branching out into the consumer market much more, so you'll see a lot more of them around I'm certain.

We had the SERE 2K and TOPS CQT Magnum on a recent trip, so I was able to A-B them. The SERE 2K was awesome as well, but it is small, and can only do what a folder can. The TOPS is so beefy, it functions as well as a fixed blade, as you might have surmised by my recent experiences, limked above in this thread by KWM.

ALl the Best,

Brian.
 
Sure would be nice to see some good photos of the CQT, closeups of the liner, handle, etc.
 
There are some photos on their site:

http://www.topsknives.com

Don't know if they are satisfactory or not. If I get time, I'll try to take some pics of mine with close-up detail. I'd venture a guess that Mike Fuller, owner of TOPS, would refund your money if you bought this knife, and, after inspecting its design closely, you DIDN'T like it.

The thing I've found is, after a LOT of heavy real use in the wilderness of Idaho, and back around here, the lock has never failed me, period. I've torqued it and twisted it. Still no failures. We beat the spine on a log with all our strength -- still no failure.

So, even though liner locks sometimes get a bad rap, the fact is, even most professional Spec Ops guys only trust liner locks! And they use 'em hard. You can cause anything to fail if you put it in the right conditions -- in an artificial laboratory vacuum. That's what those tests are designed for, I believe.

But the thing that counts is, how will it perform for you in the field, using it the way you use it? After all, most of us don't have access to a laboratory, and don't have the knowledge of physics. That is not at all putting down Cliff's tests in any way: I think his viewpoint is extremely beneficial and helpful to an overall picture -- his tests tell us objectively how far any blade can go until it fails, and then some kind of comparison can be made. However, me thinks Cliff abuses them far beyond what they would see in the field. At least, most times... :) But I can tell he's having a LOT of fun....who wouldn't?! LOL.

Best,

Brian.
 
AF,

TOPS is a hard line to sell on the Internet. Everyone (general consumers at large) knows Buck, CRK, etc. and has seen them at stores, gun shows, camp sites, etc. and are more comofortable with a purchase they don't "touch" first. Something about the tactile sensations in the hand holding the knife prepares the fingers and palm for prying the wallet open to count the money out.

TOPS makes a lot of good knives but, they have a focused appeal (Do I really need a Smoke Jumper?). They make a lot of models, each one of which is specifically designed to serve a specific need. Most users don't really know what they want to do with a knife so, working through all the options is a bewildering search (and very time consuming for the dealer). The people here on the forums are a very small part of the buying public at large so, this issue should not be over looked. Murphy's law ensures that you will have every knife in the line but one and, that is the one the customer wants. A significantly large Internet concern can stand the inventory costs of stocking that many knives but, most cannot. Combine that with the lower sales volume (a lot internet sites live or die based on customer sales volume), and you have a very tough situation for an honest to goodness for profit Internet site. As alluded to above, the TOPS line is great for a large purchase order by a large company or government entity but, single sales to end users on-line is a very tough business proposition for most dealers.

I should also note, that unless things have changed, Mike and Helen do not personally manage their web-site (I'm not sure if they even own a computer). If you find something on the web-site you like, give them a call. Mike and Helen are a class act with regards to personal attention and customer service.
 
Tops sure makes a lot of models. But I am not really attracted to any of them. REKAT is not a highly distributed knife either (more so than TOPS though) and there are a bunch of SIFU fans around. Don't any of them want to try out the CQT Magum? I am not going to spring for it right now.
 
AF,

I think BFC members' enthusiasm has a lot to do with whether or not they know much about the product. Rekat, among others, has a forum here, and so brand knowledge builds that way. Also, the SIFU was conceived by members right here in the forums, so you bet it got a lot of PR!

I feel the pictures on the TOPS website don't really give you a sense of the craftsmanship and feel of the blades. You really gotta hold them and use them.

When I take out the CQT and show it to someone, they open it, hold it, stare at it like a lovestruck puppy, look up at me slightly psychotically, and say, "Mannnn! I REALLY gotta get me one of these....!" Happens every time. LOL.
 
Brian, please don't try to convince too many people to buy the TOPS Magnum. I want one of these and am concerned that a run on them may create a shortage before I place my order. ;)

I would describe myself as a "touch 'em and touch 'em some more" kind of buyer. I prefer to see a knife in person, handle it, and closely inspect it before purchase. However, based on the website photos of the knife and the reviews/comments by posters like you and jayharley, I'm pretty certain that I would not be disappointed with the Magnum 747. I'm now surfing around for the best mail order price since there are no TOPS dealers where I live. I have lots of "mouse" folders but now yearn for the "elephant."
 
Brian :

The way I use a knife in the woods, or in general, makes the sabre grind good for me because it acts like a wedge for heavy work.

On a very basic level all knives are just wedges. Force is exerted to break the material apart at the very edge, and then the material is wedged apart along the sides of the blade. One of the critical effects of a sabre flat grind is that in order to get the same level of cutting ability as a fully flat ground blade, because the sabre ground blade is thicker above the edge, the edge has to be thinner and/or more acute than on the fully flat ground blade, thus it is not as durable. So basically the thicker primary profile has weakened the edge.

The basic principle of all woodworking tools that are designed to simply cut material is to reduce the profile to the absolute minimum in order to give the greatest mechanical advantage. Now with tools that don't just cut but have to be able to take strong lateral forces (prying), the cross section is increased, and cutting ability it lost in order to increase the lateral strength. However back the the folder, I would be very curious if the TOPS folder could actually take the level of force required to break a fully flat ground blade without damaging the handle. And even if this was the case, you are better off using a higher ground profile on thicker stock as it is more efficient.

The thing I've found is, after a LOT of heavy real use in the wilderness of Idaho, and back around here, the lock has never failed me, period. I've torqued it and twisted it. Still no failures. We beat the spine on a log with all our strength -- still no failure.

This is high performance indeed, I have never seen a lock that even claimed that level of strength and durability. A critical question for me is will TOPS support the performance you describe?

But the thing that counts is, how will it perform for you in the field, using it the way you use it?

Yes, that is all that actually matters. The stock tests I do are done for two reasons. First off it allows me to examine the various geometric and steel issues in detail. Secondly they are easily repeated by anyone else and can therefore be used to judge the relative performance of other blades. They also give meaning to qualitative statements like "chops well". Work in a less controlled enviroment over a broad range of tasks is obvously critical to forming a solid viewpoint of a blades ablities. I also send the blades out to others to examine the various effects of different methods, physicial abilities and skill levels.

Cliff abuses them far beyond what they would see in the field.

Heavy woodwork exerts stresses far beyond most of the "artifical" tests I do, seasoned bone is a step above this in regards to edge impacts, but far less for gross blade issues. By heavy wood work I mean splitting knotty seasoned wood, limbing out trees that have grown in poorly lit conditions, chopping knotty and seasoned wood when fatigued and/or in poor light, etc. . For example the Sog Arc-lite fell apart when I was splitting some small pieces of soft wood (Pine and Fir), not an actual round, not extensively seasoned, and not the harder wood around here (Spruce, Juniper). Nor was I using anyway near the maximal amount of force, and I was using a rather soft mallet (piece of wood, Pine if I remember correctly).

-Cliff
 
Cliff:

On a very basic level all knives are just wedges. Force is exerted to break the material apart at the very edge, and then the material is wedged apart along the sides of the blade. One of the critical effects of a sabre flat grind is that in order to get the same level of cutting ability as a fully flat ground blade, because the sabre ground blade is thicker above the edge, the edge has to be thinner and/or more acute than on the fully flat ground blade, thus it is not as durable. So basically the thicker primary profile has weakened the edge.

Very true and good point as far as knives being wedges. I haven't found (noticealby) that the sabre grind has weakened the edges -- atleast within the realm of work I've done, although I don't doubt your observations here because you do get into those specifics, and it's very interesting to read. The sabre grind just splits things aprt faster for my tastes, and although on bigger knives it redcues the slicing ability, and the depth of a fine cut, I tend to look at my knife as a more general multipurpose tool in the woods, so it's fine overall for me.

This is high performance indeed, I have never seen a lock that even claimed that level of strength and durability. A critical question for me is will TOPS support the performance you describe?

I can't say whether they would support it or not...the first CQT Magnum we brought into the field in Idaho was abused by us at the specific request of TOPS, in order to see how far we could take it until it failed. It happened not to fail. In fact, it did so well, I got one of my own as a result! TOPS have not, however, made any claims as to that level of strength and durability. I'm just describing my own experiences with the blades. I'm still flabbergasted...LOL. Your best bet is to check with them, tell them what you want to do, and ask if they'd cover it. Otherwise, they probably would consider it abuse. The only reason I abused the knife on those recent "rescues" was because it had to be done and I had, based upon my Idaho experiences, a high degree of confidence that it wouldn't fail. And it didn't. One thing to point out is that my experiences here were with two differnet knives: the one in Idaho, and the one I now own. It ws nice to see that the quality and durabiblity did not vary.

Of course, that said, I had no way (and no real skill) to measure specific stresses, so I can only do an anecdotal/statistical kind of evaluation over time and continued use. That's where your scientific training helps us all out, Cliff.

As far as your tests go, Cliff, I admire the way you've set an objective performance standard -- it's very important work that you do for all of us here in the community, even if some of my outdoor brethren don't always agree with me. And I do like how you cross reference your friends' experiences as well. Like I said before, it also looks like fun!!! Most of us here don't have the skills to properly measure performance in such a consistent way. I always learn a great dela from reading your reviews and findings on blades, metals, and many other related factors. Don't ever stop!

I was being facetious when I posted about your abusing them far beyond the uses in the field. Hee Hee. I was specifically thinking at that moment about the time you jumped on a Busse blade to try breaking it, and sent it flying like a projectile...LOL!

ALl the Best, and thanks,

Brian.
 
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