Collectors Viewpoint on Custom Knifemakers Collaborating with Knife Companies

Snody

Snody

Maker of Fine Knives & Leather Goods
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Question to the collectors of knives costing $600.00 and more.
How do factory collaborations affect your opinion of a Custom Knifemaker and his work with regards to appreciation, desirability and resale value.

When I started making knives professionally I was told that working with a "Knife Company" would cheapen my brand and that collectors would no longer wish to purchase my "custom" knives when they see "factory" Snody Knives available. I signed up with Benchmade in 2004 and my experience was the exact exact opposite.
Young first time knife buyers would often purchase the "production" knife and later contact me to purchase a "custom" knife.

Ka-Bar sent a team down to my knife shop today and when they left this evening I began wondering about the perception issue again.

If you are buying a $1,200.00 custom knife from a maker do you care if he has a production knife made in the United States?

Same question but what if the production knife is made in Asia?

Do any of the collectors feel like that is "selling out" and as a result would not collect the makers higher end custom work because the brand is cheapened?

I signed up with Ka-Bar last year and my knives will be American Made but I was wondering how the guys out there spending the money feel.

Much Respect.
 
I agree. I think your experience is why I personally love collaborations. I'm one of those guys who can't afford a custom right now. That said, if I see a collaboration that I like, I make a mental note that when I have the funds, I'd be more willing to drop three figures for the maker. Another thing (and this may just be me) is that it seems like that custom maker is more open and accessible to the general public through these. I would say partnering with Kabar is a great choice, considering both of your great reputations. Best of luck. I'll be looking for the results.
 
Mike,
I have also been thinking about this so I thank you for bringing it up. I see a lot of collaborations happening right now between custom makers and production companies, most notably is Boker. They are making designs from Burnley, Manaro, Marsh, Anso, Burke, and Begg among others.

I think that collaborations can be good and bad.
They are good because they take a makers most popular model and make it accessible to everyone. Otherwise you are on a makers wait list or have to take your chances in a lottery at a show.

They can be bad because they take a makers most popular model and make it accessible to everyone. Why should a someone take their chances in a lottery or pay the huge secondary market prices when they can get a production version, which is made of the same or similar materials for less money?

A well known maker who frequents these forums once said that when a company approaches him to do a collaboration he designs a new knife that is similar to the one they would like to produce. This way you can only ever get a certain model from him.
 
I think it's a great idea. To my way of thinking, it shows that the custom maker may also have an interest in reaching out to the more "common" buyer and knife enthusiast. And, as stated, it often serves as an introduction to the maker, possibly selling a custom later on. The only issue I could see is that if the company being collaborated with, poorly executes the knife maker's design intents. Nobody wants to see a great maker's name on junk but I'm not aware of any disasters like that. A custom is a custom, and the maker's time, materials, skills, artistry, and attention to detail for that one knife are what creates the value for me. Mike
 
Great question and one I have been giving a lot of thought to recently. I think it can work for you if you make it. If you collaborate with a company with a good reputation and enduring excellent quality standards I think you have a lot to gain. An artist's or craftman's work improves in value when their reputation grows. Their work becomes more desirable to a wider range of people.
But...
If you collaborate it is a personal risk. If a company uses your design but makes it from mystery steel with plastic grips and a tacticool name it will be your brand that suffers.
If on the other hand your collaberation is with a solid company where a high level of quality control is guaranteed (get it into the contract if you can) your custom pieces -especially those which influenced the mass produced model - should be in higher demand.
If it is worth big money to you it might be worth talking to an expert in business development too.
Also I have to say I love that this is a forum where people actually care about each others success.
 
My biggest problem with collabs is when makers liscense their flagship designs to companies with crap quality, like Boker. The Epicenter and Bullseye are prime examples of this, Boker took two really awesome designs and turned them into absolute shite, and that hurt's a maker's rep. Benchmade, Spyderco, Protech, these companies know how to build a knife, and if I were a maker liscensing my flagship design to someone, I'd be very selective about who I let produce it. These guys would be on my list. Companies like Boker, SOG or CRKT would not, because frankly I don't think they're capable of executing to the degree of quality I would expect out a custom collab.
 
Bob Loveless did several collaborations. But I never noticed that he had any trouble selling his "bench made" knives. LOL!

Of course there was only one Bob Loveless. In general, I imagine that it might cut both ways (pun noted). It can introduce a maker to a much wider audience, but if not carefully managed I suppose that it might cannibalize sales of the "custom" knives. Personally, it does not matter to me as a collector.

BTW, I wonder how aftermarket sales of XM-18s have changed since ZT started selling the ZT0560?
 
Further to my last post;
The market/consumer perception of quality is at least as important as actual quality. So if you were to hypothetically end up with your collaboration pieces made in China to a very high standard with USA quality assurance some people would still think you had sold out to communist slave labour (an often innacurate generalisation - you get what you pay for).

Some knifemakers hold their independence from manufacturers very highly and good on them - especially those who thrive in the business. But that's not for everyone and you have to do what is right by yourself, your brand and your business.

It sounds like you are working with a widely loved and reputable company who are known for solid quality. More power to you Sir...and I now wish I bought one of your custom knives before you signed the deal :)
 
If it works for you, then do it. As for knives being made in Asia, I think it probably depends on the price point that you are shooting for. I know that you can get reasonably priced (by our standards) higher end production/mid tech stuff made in Italy, France, Germany, etc. The US would appear to be a bit trickier because the OEM manufacturers seem to be pretty full up with their current workload. But if you want to offer a lower price, you pretty much have to go to the Far East. My advice would be don't leqve any money on the table and don't give up "artistic" control within reason and input on things like QC issues. It may be had to make one of your regular designs to a price point, but make sure they are making something that you don't mind having your name on.
 
in '04 or '05 when I became reinterested in knives in general, (after almost 20 years of 'suspended interest') and learned what was what, I settled on Benchmade as the go to production company because they had some great looking, practical knives and were highly regarded for quality. Proprietary technology didn't hurt either.

What I ended up with first was a couple of Snody designed knives; an Activator, a Resistor and a 4200.

I quickly gained some serious interest in handmade knives, once I understood what level of quality and finish they bring to the table, and now have a nice little collection.

I do not own any Snody customs. Not sure why, as I've never given it much thought, but that's the reality.

That a custom knife maker licenses designs to production companies has thus far made no impact on whether or not I will seek out that maker and order a knife from them.

It's not necessarily a judgement call on the maker, ie; 'selling out', but perhaps a diminished view on the specialness of that maker's designs. Perhaps it's a 'familiarity breeds contempt' thing. I really don't know. But I can say that, although I might want a production version of a custom maker's licensed design, my having one has so far lead to exactly zero orders through the maker who came up with the design in the first place.
 
Lorien said:
in '04 or '05 when I became reinterested in knives in general, (after almost 20 years of 'suspended interest') and learned what was what, I settled on Benchmade as the go to production company because they had some great looking, practical knives and were highly regarded for quality. Proprietary technology didn't hurt either.

What I ended up with first was a couple of Snody designed knives; an Activator, a Resistor and a 4200.

I quickly gained some serious interest in handmade knives, once I understood what level of quality and finish they bring to the table, and now have a nice little collection.

I do not own any Snody customs. Not sure why, as I've never given it much thought, but that's the reality.

That a custom knife maker licenses designs to production companies has thus far made no impact on whether or not I will seek out that maker and order a knife from them.

It's not necessarily a judgement call on the maker, ie; 'selling out', but perhaps a diminished view on the specialness of that maker's designs. Perhaps it's a 'familiarity breeds contempt' thing. I really don't know. But I can say that, although I might want a production version of a custom maker's licensed design, my having one has so far lead to exactly zero orders through the maker who came up with the design in the first place.
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Your posts just keep getting better and better.
You are beginning to develop a signature writing style and I always look forward to reading your posts.
Well written with forethought and proper punctuation.
Five Stars!
 
328xi said:
My biggest problem with collabs is when makers liscense their flagship designs to companies with crap quality
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I concur wholeheartedly with my fellow German auto aficionado.

I think a well-executed collaboration can lead to additional value for the maker. Benchmade, Kershaw/ZT, and Pro-tech have had a favorable impact on my perception of the works of Ken Onion, G&G Hawk, Neil Blackwood, Allen Elishewitz, and others.

On the other hand I have been wildly unimpressed with the offerings from the Boker "Plus" line and other Chinese-sourced productions. I have yet to see a Chinese-produced knife that met my expectations for fit, finish, and overall quality. Maybe some day they'll achieve parity with Japanese and American quality, but they sure aren't there yet.

I also think the overall reputation of the manufacturer should be considered. I wouldn't touch a Mantis knife with a 10-foot pole, yet it seems that some makers are choosing to work with them.

I don't know much about Ka-bar other than the immediate name recognition that they enjoy. But I don't see how that could be a bad thing. :)
 
What effect has Kershaw been for Ken Onion's custom knife market? How does it generally work, the maker licenses a design for a % of sales or they purchase the design to use at their liberty?
David
 
Tripwire895 said:
I agree. I think your experience is why I personally love collaborations. I'm one of those guys who can't afford a custom right now. That said, if I see a collaboration that I like, I make a mental note that when I have the funds, I'd be more willing to drop three figures for the maker. Another thing (and this may just be me) is that it seems like that custom maker is more open and accessible to the general public through these. I would say partnering with Kabar is a great choice, considering both of your great reputations. Best of luck. I'll be looking for the results.
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Thanks Friend.
I really appreciate you taking time to post.
I am very proud to be with Ka-Bar.
My eight years with Benchmade were good.
I am very excited to be with Ka-Bar going forward.
Check out my forum in the Custom Makers Area if you ever you have time.
I have alot more information about Ka-Bar there.
Holler if you ever need anything.. 361 443 0161
Huge Respect from Texas
 
Mike collaborations are fine as long as the makers ideals , steel selection ,etc are respected and utilized

When we see each other I will tell you some stories positive and good

But being the consumate business man I know you can swim brother
 
The first Snody knife I held was the benchmade. My coworker bought it because it was a good design, well executed. He didn't know the designer then but he does now.
 
I feel that as long as the deal is struck with a quality company that makes quality knives and every effort is made to honor each side's expectations, collaborations are good for not only the principles but the maker's collectors as well. Good thread Mike.
 
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I first came across the name Mike Snody through the Benchmade collaborations. Had no idea who Mike Snody was, but there were some write ups in some mags about Mike Snody collaborating with Benchmade. Looked at the Benchmade Snody knives, bought a few, now I know who Mike Snody is. Due to the ensuing familiarity with Snody knives, now, I would buy a Mike Snody custom knife if the opportunity to do so and my resources coincided.

If I remember correctly, your first collaboration with Benchmade was at a stage before your work was so widely known. The publicity put out by Benchmade about their latest signing was to your advantage. Signing with Kabar ought to have the same effect as I dare say, out there, the name Kabar may still ring more bells than Mike Snody's (no disrespect meant).

The Benchmade Snody knives were great knives and therefore were good publicity for you. Kabar ought to be the same. I like Snody designed knives and I would buy Kabar Snody knives.

The most important thing, as highlighted several times above, is that the knifemaker must only collaborate with a company that shares his vision about the knives to be put out.
 
Darrel Ralph collaborated with Meyerco, and he still seems to be doing well.

I always had the thought that getting signed by a production company was a good sign that you'd made it as a knifemaker, and could then become a knife designer.
 
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