CPM440V or D2?

Daniel

Daniel

Gold Member
Joined
Oct 3, 1998
Messages
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I want to purchase a Carson Model 4. I cannot decide whether to get one in CPM440V or in D2. I want a blade that will resist rust, hold an edge, and look good. I have my eye on a red bone handled one with titanium bolsters in satin D2. I just don't know much about D2. I have knives with 440V and really like the steel. Can someone shed some light on this dilemna?

Daniel
 
Daniel,

I might suggest you talk to Kit Carson. I had the good fortune to meet him at the SHOT SHOW and can highly recommend him to help you decide, after all, who better then the maker himself to help guide you to the best choice for your needs!

Also, you might want to check out the folder tool steel thread in the main discussion area.

Sid
 
Kit just made me one in CPM 420V.

A very nice steel indeed.

I agree, speak to Kit, and you will find the answers you seek.

In any case, you won't be disappointed.

Blues

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Live Free or Die






 
Simple, Since Kit is doing that. I would get 420V, Stellite or, Talonite. I know he has been playing with it and he has a few blades made in it. Your best be I think would be talk to Kit about what you planning on doing with it. I am sure he can help you make the rite decision for your particular knife. Any of three are better than the two you had in mind.

Regards,


Tom Carey
 
O.K., I'll bite on this one. Unless you live in a salt water environment and are in the habit of putting your knife away dirty or wet, you aren't likely to get rust on a D-2 knife. Its chromium content isn't much less than ATS-34, and its still considered a stainless steel. It holds an edge better than ATS-34 or 440C, and perhaps BG-42

What will you get with a D-2 blade? Something that is a little tougher, a little easier to sharpen, and that will hold an edge almost as long as 440V. I have a couple of 440V folders, and they do hold an edge longer than D-2, but nothing like the 7-8 times longer suggested by the folks that produce it. It will not take a polished finish, but will take a real nice using, satin finish.
You will also probaby be able to buy the knife for $50 less than what the maker will want to do it with a 440V blade.

I'm not saying that 440V isn't good, but you don't always have to go high tech to get a good working knife

madpoet
 
Madpoet, just how much better in your experience is 440V than D2 in regards to edge retention? Are we talking about something fairly small like 25% or rather larger like a factor of 2?

-Cliff
 
Cliff
Speaking as someone that has used it, but not worked to any extent with it, my experience is that in real use, the edge retention of 440V is pretty close to 25% better than D-2. At best perhaps 50%. If you believe the abrasion resistance charts it should be about 400% better. I'd be interested in hearing if what you find once you start testing it is different.

Maybe part of why this is, hinges in part on what Joe Talmadge and Mike Swaim talk about sometimes, that part of the cutting is the micro-serrations in the edge? D-2 by its composition has fairly large and coarse carbides, so to a certain extent its like dendretic steel, in that its by nature a 'coarse' steel, no matter how much you try to polish the edge. Even once the sharpened edge wears a bit, its exposing some of the carbides which keeps it cutting??? Bob Engnath was fond of referring to D-2 as the steel that took a poor edge, and held it forever....that is it would never polish like a fine grain steel, but the type of edge it does take just keeps working.

CPM steels by virtue of their powdered grain don't have that coarse structure. More abrasion resistant, yes, but I think it also means that once you wear off the sharpened edge, you have a fine, but dull edge. Does that make any sense?

I think one thing the charts can't deal with, and what is going to make it harder getting a valid test is comparing blades with a similar edge and blade geometry, and blade smoothness. I had a 440V blade custom folder that took what felt like an extremely sharp edge, and held it well, but the bead blasted blade dragged so bad in cutting stiff materials that it defeated the purpose of the edge. Ditto for anything with a steep hollow grind on a thicker blade, since in some materials it wedges, and defeats any advantage you may gain from a specialty steel.

madpoet
 
Madpoet, that makes perfect sense. Its not like abrasion resistance = edge holding, its a factor but just one of many. As for you comment about the grain structure, yeah, another factor in edge retention is actual cutting ability. If a knife cuts really well you will be making less strokes and using less force per stroke, this will make it hold an edge longer than a knife that has better abrasion resistance but can't take as good a cutting edge.

I will be getting a knife similar to the one you made me in one of the more abrasion resistant steels like 10V or even 15V. Why not 420V? Well, this is due to a curiosity on my part mainly, I want to see just how much of a factor impact toughness in regards to edge holding and exactly what kind of materials do you need to be cutting on in order to want the higher impact toughness of 420V as opposed to 10V.

-Cliff
 
Thank you everyone for the great information. I decided toget the D2 one, but someone had already purchased it.

I e-mailed Kit and he returned the e-mail very quickly, but as you all know he is very busy and it would take about 18 months to make one for me. I am sorry, but I have not been blessed with any patience and the wait would kill me.

So, I am now looking for a medium Model 4 with red bone handles and titanium bolsters with either 440V or D2 blade.

Again, thanks for your information,

Daniel
 
Daniel,
Hope we didn't hold you up too long discussing this amongst ourselves? ;-) Sometimes its easy to get long winded and forget the guy that originally sent in the post, and what they wanted to know! ;-)

take care

madpoet
 
Actually, I thoroughly enjoy it when forumites go on and on. That is when I learn the most about knives, knifemaking, and steel.

Discussion and debate is what it is all about!
smile.gif


Daniel
 
Daniel,

Arizona Custom Knives may have what you are looking for. (Looks like I started something with my Red Bone beauty!
wink.gif
)

http://www.arizonacustomknives.com/azknive.htm#anchor535872

Give it a look.

Blues



------------------
Live Free or Die






 
Blues,

Yes, you did!

I checked with Karen and Jay and they already sold the medium one, but they still had the small one. I like the 3 1/2" size blade better-just long enough, but not too long. The #1150 is exactly what I am looking for-

Thanks for the heads up,

Daniel
 
I have been useing 440V for a number of years as well as D2. I would agree with the statement of it holding an edge about 50% better or so. It does stay plenty sharp for a long time. I am very picky. More so than anyone I have ever met. I like scary sharp in my knives and it better hold a long time or it is history. Just because it will shave the hair on my arms does not mean it is sharp. I still like useing a Dozier from time to time. I am presently useing a Cetan in Talonite alot as well as a knife in 440V.

Regards,

Tom Carey
 
Okay, I understand that 440V will hold an edge better than D2, and that the tradeoff is probably toughness, to some extent. Does this factor become much more noticable as the blade length increases?

I'm considering Steve Mullin's Pack River models. His folders with edges 3+ inches are typically 440V, but his Camp Knife at 7 inches are D2. Is it that the longer blade is more fragile, or that the longer blade will more likely be used harder, such as for chopping?
 
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