Crawford/Kasper Fighting Folder

C

Cameron Reddy

Joined
May 26, 2000
Messages
30
This was previously posted in the general blade forum, but I thought it better suited to appear here. My apologies if this is inappropriate or unnecessarily duplicative.

I took my new KFF (full size) to Bob Kasper's KNI-COM course and I can tell you that it is one heck of a knife.

Every feature has been thought out in view of real world fighting experiences. The liner lock, for instance, is fully recessed so that it will not disengage if the knife twists in your hand (so far as I know, the KFF is the only knife to incorporate this feature). The knife handle is wide and flat so that it will not twist when you "crowbar" out of your adversary. The deep finger grove at the front of the knife and the flange behind the pinky finger serve to index and secure the knife for thrusts and slashes. The blade shape (slight re-curve) even optimizes the effectiveness of "snap" thrusts. You will also notice that the handle design gives you about three quarters of an inch greater reach.

In short, there are prettier knives, stronger knives, and knives with greater utility, but there is no better folder with which to fight.

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Cameron Reddy
 
Hi Cameron,

I always find posts like yours interesting. First let me state I have all the respect for Bob Kasper and his abilites. Both his skills using a knife and designing knives. The same goes for Pat Crawfords ability to make a knife.

This may surpise most of you. The knife that kills more people each year in the US than any other is the Butcher knife. Why? Well it's not for its ease of concealment, its balance and superior materials used. It is the knife of choice among housewives (who by the way kill more men with knives then men do) because of it's accessibility.

Rule #1, the best knife to have in a knife fight is the one that you can get your hands on just before the fight.

While everything you say is true about the capabilites about the knife Bob designed is true. It is an excellent knife however, it is not an every day carry knife. In most states it would be illegal to carry such a knife, especially concealled.

Consequently, it would violate the aforementioned Rule #1. As it would do you no good at home.

Bob in conjunction with Al Polkowski has designed some very leathal fighting fixed blade knives. If I was going to risk going to jail for carrying a concealed weapon. I would submit to you, that because of the size of the Kasper folder and your concerns for a folder closing on your fingers. You may want to look at some of Bob's fixed blade designs.

As they come out ready to go to work, can be carried in several different positions and because of the double edge option avaiable can be exceptionally lethal in a "figure 8" type deployment.

Another consideration is are you really willing to deploy the knife and draw blood. With the lethal and slightly less than lethal blood born diseases out there. Do you really want your opponents blood spraying on you.

With all that said, Cameron have you ever handled the Applegate Fairbain folder that Butch Vallotton and Bill Harsey made in a limited edition of 200 pieces?

4 1/2" blade, spear point, double edge, grooved handle for indexing, radiused handle.

Very comfortable, very quick and easy to manipulate.

I recommend you try one of those. Rob Morandi is selling one right now on Bladeforums. I think you would be very impressed.

By the way, I am jealous. Wish I had to the time to get to one of Bob's seminars and train with him.



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Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

"Nobody throws me my own guns and tells me to run, nobody!
 
Originally posted by Cameron Reddy:
The liner lock ... is fully recessed ....(so far as I know, the KFF is the only knife to incorporate this feature).
Click to expand...

the Crawford Shark also has the recessed liner, also a great knife. i bet there are others...



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--steve
 
Les, thank you for the kind words. You make several good and interesting points. I’d like to reply to a couple.

You said:

“ It is an excellent knife however, it is not an every day carry knife. In most states it would be illegal to carry such a knife, especially concealed.”

Often, the legality of carrying a knife depends on intent. In Michigan, for example, it is widely, and mistakenly, thought that a knife over four inches is per se illegal. In fact, the law states, in relevant part:

“A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk, stiletto, a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument of any length, or any other dangerous weapon, except a hunting knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about his or her person, . . . except in his or her dwelling house, place of business or on other land possessed by the person.”

To be illegal, the knife must fall within the definition of “dangerous weapon,” but outside the exception for a hunting knife. Insofar as a pen or screwdriver can be used as a weapon, the circumstances of each case will determine whether the knife is deemed a dangerous weapon. Importantly, the length of the knife is merely a factor to be considered. Testimony as to the intended use of the knife, such as statements by the defendant to the effect that “it’s a utility knife,” or “I hunt with this thing,” will be very important.

But note:

“Any person who, with intent to use the same unlawfully against the person of another, goes armed with a pistol or other firearm or dagger, dirk, razor, stiletto, or knife having a blade over 3 inches in length, or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument, shall be guilty of a felony, . . . .”

Note that a crime is committed only if the knife is carried with the intent to commit a felony. Practically, this means that you must have already committed an underlying felony with your 4, 5, or 10 inch knife. Unless there is an underlying felony, such as robbery, it will be nearly impossible, based solely on the length of your knife, to establish that you intend to commit a felony.

In summary, I feel comfortable carrying my KFF since:

1. I do not use it, nor do I intend to use it, as a weapon. It is my utility knife.
2. I hunt with the thing.
3. I have no intent to rob anyone or commit any other crime, with or without the use, and/or aid, of my knife.

Another point you made:

“Cameron have you ever handled the Applegate Fairbain folder that Butch Vallotton and Bill Harsey made in a limited edition of 200 pieces?

4 1/2" blade, spear point, double edge, grooved handle for indexing, radiused handle.”

As you can see from what I have said and quoted, my only problem with carrying the Applegate folder is the double edge (which can easily be ground down). I have only seen the Gerber versions. I would very much like to see and hold (and probably buy) the Vallotton/Harsey rendition. I bet it would make a great hunting knife!

And finally, you said:

“Bob in conjunction with Al Polkowski has designed some very lethal fighting fixed blade knives. If I was going to risk going to jail for carrying a concealed weapon. . . . You may want to look at some of Bob's fixed blade designs.”

First, (and putting aside the issue of whether the knife is a dangerous weapon) I’d argue strongly that the KFF clipped to my pocket is not concealed. Indeed, the clip (on mine) is so long, sculpted, and polished that it is hard to miss. And the top of the knife is clearly visible. As to a fixed blade, again, carried with some portion visible, I do not think that it is “concealed,” in which case any length is fine. Indeed, carefully reading Michigan law makes it clear that I can carry my gun, provided it is visible or is in a visible holster, damn near anywhere I want. Accordingly, would you please notify me of any impending shipment of any of Al Polkowski’s knives?

And yes, you ought to be jealous. Bob Kasper is a class act and his seminar is terrific.

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Cameron Reddy
 
Hi Cameron,

Your answers have only reinforced my points.

If you can't carry it, it does you no good.

I know Michigan is getting very restrictive on it's knife laws.

As for grinding down the double edge, that is like putting only 3 shots in a 6 shot revolver. Makes no sense. That double edge is what may make it the most lethal folding fighter out there.



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Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

"Nobody throws me my own guns and tells me to run, nobody!
 
Les,

I must have been unclear. In the interest of making sure no one misunderstands my posts, I will attempt to clarify a few things.

I can carry the KFF in Michigan and, quite likely, in many other states (at least those states with fairly similar laws). And I can conceal it.

I do not run afoul of the first statute I cited for two reasons. The first is that, while I can conceal the knife, I don’t. I clip it inside my pocket where the clip and the top of the knife are visible to all. The second reason is that, concealed or not, I do not carry it as a dangerous weapon but, instead, as a utility and hunting knife.

I do not run afoul of the second statute because I have no intent to use the knife in the commission of a crime.

As for grinding down the double edge of the Applegate Fairbain folder, you are right that it makes no sense. I was thinking of the non-folding version. The statute refers only to a double-edged nonfolding stabbing instrument.

However, there is an interesting point to me made, and it applies equally to a double-edged fixed blade and a handgun. In Michigan, they can both be carried openly–until, that is, you get in your car. My original quote of the statute omitted a portion of text, and it makes for a really strange quirk in the law:

“A person shall not carry . . . whether concealed or otherwise in any vehicle operated or occupied by the person, . . . .”

Thus, as you can see, to carry the double-edged fixed blade (or a gun), I would have to remove the knife or gun from my person and put it in the trunk of my car whenever I drove to the store to run an errand, etc. Then, upon arriving at my destination, I would have to open the trunk, pull out the knife or gun, and place it on my body in a non-concealed fashion.

Now let’s say I’m on my way to the local liberal newspaper where I want to argue with the socialist editor. I get out of my car, open the trunk, holster my knife and gun . . . and soon the SWAT team arrives.

Cameron Reddy www.cameronreddy.com
 
Interesting topic.

I am a lawyer, also have trained extensively with Paul Vunak, Jack McVicker and several others who I consider to be the epitome of knife fighting instructors. The only reason I mention both of these things is to somewhat qualify what follows.

Unless you are carrying something that clearly violates the statute in your state [autos where autos are illegal] and, of course, you are caught with it, knife use is largely judged with hindsight. That is, what *did* you do with it, as opposed to what *could* you do with it.

In Indiana there is a statute regarding deadly weapons. In one case it was determined that a fan belt from a car could qualify under the statute. Nice, huh?

So far as a KFF being a hunting knife, well, I am with you...but we may get lonely
smile.gif
If someone wants to make a charge stick badly enough, the name will at least get the issue in front of the jury. That you hunt with a Krinkov does not mean a Krink is a hunting rifle. It just means that you have hunted with a Krink, see the difference?

What I carry [so far as knives are concerned] varies depending on what I feel the need most likely will be. If I am going to church, the sub-hilt fighter stays at home. If I am going to East St. Louis on business, that plus other things will go. Most places I travel to on cases, I don't know the specifics of that state's knife laws. What I carry when I travel though, doesn't change dramatically. A lesson learned in beautiful downtown Detroit made me a believer in carrying what I need, and how woefully inadequate most "pocket-knives" are when it is go time.

Good luck boys.

By the way Les, I appreciate the emails on the knives I have inquired about on your site. Thanks much.

Bruce
 
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