Crossing the line. Buying customs from lesser known makers

M

matthew rapaport

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Jun 23, 1999
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Don't know if this applies so much to folders, but I've been getting more into fixed blades lately. A few weekends ago I attended the BAKCA show and while I didn't find exactly what I came looking for, I ended up spending about $350 on three nice fixed utility blades from three different and more-or-less unknown makers.

Now these people may have been making knives for a longer or shorter while, I don't really know. None of them are BF participants that I know of, and none are famous in the sense that their names have become household words around here, or anywhere else for that matter.

I don't know why I had to buy 3 different knives, all fairly specialized in the same area, skinning, and all looking pretty good as general purpose utility pieces too. Up until this time, I've only had one custom utility piece (a Dozier), and only 4 other customs of any kind, all of them larger blades (camp knives and machetes). I've got some higher end factory folders too and a few higher end factory fixed blades. But what was I thinking?

Mind you I am not at all unhappy with my purchases. Each is unique and of a style unfamiliar to me which is probably why I was attracted to them. Since I couldn't find what I really wanted, I got three different things, all very different from what I had ever used before so that I could try out the styles and see how they worked. So far, they are all doing just fine. Now I have to find some way to sell off 3/4 of the rest of my collection for a reasonable price because I want to buy more of these "lesser known" customs, but can't justify yet more knives... At least not yet. :)

I can say though that I'm glad I went with these unknowns for now. I got three knives for the price of one or one and a half of similar knives from the better known makers. This way I get to experiment with more styles, and since the knives are not of a class expected to dig/pry me out of an imploded bunker, I don't need to worry if they will survive the uses to which they will be put. Indeed, over the summer my whole philosophy of knife use has changed. Maybe a good subject for another thread.

No particular question here. Just wanted to encourage folks to give some of the lesser known makers a try. If the knives don't meet your expectations, well you haven't spent very much and have learned better what those expectations should be.

There are some pictures of these knives on the web at my site at http://www.quine.home.sonic.net/mycustoms.html They are not of great quality, but I know now what I have to do to get more contrast in them and will make another pass at it next week. I will also add another message to the bottom of the thread to bring it back to the top and include the maker's names...
 
One other thing...if you buy a knife from a newer custom maker, and there is a problem and you take it back to him/her and let them know about it...that gives them a chance ot make it right witht hat and ALL future knives...and gives them a chance to not have their reputation ruined by a mistake in their process in the their first few years.

directed at no one in particular here...just kinda follows my thought processes with this here...

Being one of the newbie custom makers around (altho I am not out on the scene at all, LOL) it is my opinion that before one were to go and say, "I had this problem with this newbie maker guys knife", on the forums or somewhere else where word travles, take it back to them, let them have a chance to make it right....
All knife makers are always learning and adapting...especially us new guys..if we are making a mistake..tis nice to know about it and be able to rectify it before there is bad word out there about our knives..


Buying customs from lesser known makers is cool...I've even done it...
and its always been a good experiance for me...
And no I dont buy my own knives...:p
 
Every knifemaker is a lesser known knifemaker at some time in his/her career. What gets them to being better known is support by the user/collectors who buy their knives and thereby encourage their progress. Keep it up. There are some fine new makers out there who deserve your support.
 
I purchased a fixed blade knife from a "not widely known maker (as far as I know)" about 6 months ago. I liked his design, bladesteel and the overall finish of the knife. He was selling his knives at a very reasonable price. He took the time to explain how they were constructed, who did the heat treat and told me of some repeat customers that use his knives to earn their living as hunting guides. I figured why not give it a try. I used this knife during all our camping trips this last summer and it performed great and has not required any sharpening other than a few quick swipes on the old crock sticks. I hope he will be back at the next show in March as I hope to pick up a "chute knife" styled knife from him then. I think knifemakers as a whole are an honest and honorable bunch. If there is a problem or you are unsatisfied with a purchase, I think that almost all makers would try to make you happy or ultimately refund your money. Like Jerry said, even the most respected makers out there were "unknown" at some point. Another thing that I like is that you truly own a pretty unique piece since some of these guys haven't made a ton of knives yet.

Info. added 10/18/01 (Thanks Phil...your right)
Name: Cisco Custom Knives (Chuck Syslo)
Address: 3418 South 116 Avenue Omaha , Nebraska 68144
 
I also enjoy buying from lesser known makers. You meet some very nice people and have a lot of fun finding unique pieces.

Let me share one particular moment at a previous NY Custom knife show. As usual, most tables were packed with patrons. There was a gentleman selling his knives (a relative newcomer at that point), but no patrons. I wandered over to say hello (and get some air) and was really floored by his knives! I purchased one that I liked for $350...a little steep from a relative "unknown"..but I just loved the knife. Turns out that $350 Shadley multi-blade now sells for 4-figures! It's also one of the finest knives I own.

Here's the point....trust your instincts. Don't be afraid of the unknown......
 
And how does one determine who does or doesn't fit in this "lesser known" category?
 
Names? How about some names here? You know they wouldn't be "Lesser Known" if people mentioned their names once in a while. Since you liked their knives why don't you do them (and all of us) a favor and post some pics with a description and their names?

I don't buy knives for names, I buy because I like the knife first and because I can afford it. Lately I find myself going to the makers whose work I like and who have become friends, either from here on BFC or from shows. There's something really special about owning a knife from someone you really like.
 
I bought a handmade knife about 7 months ago from a fellow named Chris Hatin, who I had learned about here on the forums. He had responded to a few posts of mine, and I came across a link to his website through another makers site (bladewiz, I think). I had never heard of him as far as big name makers go, but one look at his knives, and I had to have one. Corresponding with him was much more personal than I expected (maybe I'm used to the "Tell us what you want, give us your CC#, and we'll ship it when we feel like it" attitude of the online retail world), and the knife was just unbelieveable. It looks like you could stap it to a satchel charge, detonate it, and the knife would be fine. The whole point is, give the guys you've never heard of a try, and you will most assuredly be glad that you did.

Just my .02


Woody
 
I had named them in other threads, don't know why I forgot here. The makers are Jo Lynn Dawson, Derik B. Fraley, and Barry Posner. I also have pictures of them now (about a meg) at http://www.quine.home.sonic.net/mycustoms.html The pics are not great, but I know now how to make them much better and will work on it again next weekend. In the meantime, if you want to seen them, click on the link and have a look.

Thanks for all the feedback. You are all right. It is a lot of fun to play with knives from new people as well as having beauties from well known makers.
 
It usually takes a maker 12-15 years to become known. That's a lot of knives. If a knife looks good to you, talk to the maker. Find out how it's heat-treated, and everything else. Now a days, with all the information out there, somebody's first year knife can be a great blade.
 
I don't know about the others, but Derek Fraley is at least 'known' for making extremely nice working folders. They have great fit and finish and show alot of attention to detail in both design and execution. If you happen to come across a Fraley folder, you won't be disappointed.
 
I had an experience similar to FUBAR. I met David Dempsey at the Blade Show in Atlanta. He took the time to talk to me about all of his knives. I picked up a business card and moved on. A short time later, I got my computer and looked up his site. Sent him an email and one thing led to another and I bought a knife from him. Had I bought the knife from a "known" maker, I probably would have paid another $75 to $100 for it.
Great knife, great price, but best of all, a super guy to do business with. www.dempseyknives.com
 
Not sure about crossing the line, it should be part of the buying decision. As Jerry stated the support is necessary. I get a lot of enjoyment from knives that have been made by lesser known makers and beginners.

There is a good feeling of lending a little support and it can be kinda cool when you helped (in a small way) support a maker who ends up "making a mark" a few years later.
 
David Dempsey is a good example of someone to watch.

Let me amplify what I meant by support, just a little. All that most knifemakers can see in their own work are the flaws. We all have them, fight them, and trying to eliminate them from our products is our daily challenge. Still, as we stand there behind our tables at a show, looking down on everything we've just poured our heart and soul into for the past few months, all that strikes our eye is that scratch I didn't see before on the fighter there at the end of the table. And damn, there's just that tiny little gap there behind the bolster on the hunter. And, I probably could have rounded that handle a little more on the boot knife. And, I wonder if that price is too high, but darn I spent 20 hours on that knife, and used $60-70 worth of materials, so $200 shouldn't be too bad, but...

So there we stand wondering...

The ONLY was we have of knowing that what we've worked so hard on is worth the time and sweat we've poured into it is if you, the buying public, say so. When you buy a knife, half of what you are paying for that knife is money; the other half - equally important to most knifemakers - is affirmation of our skills. It is truly the only way a knifemaker knows if he/she's worth a damn.

Without any doubt, some wonderfully talented knifemakers have come and gone, simply because they attended lousy shows or lacked some other means of getting the necessary positive feedback that told them to stick with it.

At the Mesquite show recently I sat next to a brand new knifemaker who had some nice tactical folders on his table. Unfortunately, whatever anyone might say, this was a slow show, and there were LOTS of nice tactical folders that went unsold on many tables there. As the show was winding down on Saturday afternoon, this young knifemaker had not sold a knife. Hell, there were some not-so-young knifemakers who hadn't sold any knives either, but he could only conclude that HIS didn't sell because of all those flaws that only he could see. I didn't see them, and I doubt the dozens of people who looked at his knives and kept walking could see them either, but what else could he conclude? The fact that a top name maker sitting behind him didn't sell anything didn't register to him. He saw some knives sold off my table, and couldn't know that many of those were bought by folks who made their decision to buy one before they got to the show. He could only see his flaws...

While I tried hard to explain that this was a SLOW show, and he shouldn't judge by this experience, and told him of my own lousy shows where I sold one or none, and pointed out to him some things about his blade grinds that were truly exceptional, maybe better than he knew, he had absolutely no way of knowing if he should even bother making another knife. I hope he does; he is quite talented and deserves to succeed, but he may decide that he doesn't ever again want to experience what was for him a humiliating experience. When his wife and little boy stopped by on Saturday, seeing that nothing had sold, it became even more difficult I'm sure. Our wives support out passion for knifemaking, without their support we simply couldn't do this, but it is even more difficult for them to understand why a knife doesn't sell. So he was left to bear her disappointment as well as his own.

Just one sale would have sustained that knifemaker's passion. Just one. Think about that, when you next consider if you should buy from an unknown knifemaker. He could be the next Tim Herman or Steve Johnson or Buster Warenski...

Hell, he might even be better; who knows...?
 
I take great pleasure in buying knives from relatively unknown makers. If I think the knife is a good one I would actually prefer to support a lesser known maker, if the price is fair. But I do have difficulty in knowing who is and who isn't "established". When i first bought from Bud Weston, Brian Tighe, Greg Lightfoot and other first rate Canadians, [and some americans too]I really didn't know who they were, and even today some people call them "up and comers". Was Neil Blackwood in the up and coming category last year? I'm no Les Robertson and I have no idea. But he makes some great knives!
I really like to support the lesser known or less popular folks where I can just because I like to encourage good artists. And so many of these folks are just great people that it just feels great to let them know you like their work and will pay a fair price for it. But it doesn't hurt that eventually the rest of the world may eventually discover how good they are and the values will increase [that's not the biggest factor for me, because I generally use my knives]. Better still, many remember and appreciate that early support when their backlog stretches on into months or years.
I like to think of my custom purchases as investment in people more than knives, but the dollars I spent are so small that to think so is probably a little presumptuous. Still, it feels pretty good :)
 
Since you mentioned Bud Weston, I'll tell you something you might not know. He was the (5 or 6 times!) Canadian National Bluegrass Banjo Champion. How's that for knifemaker trivia?

Our tables were next to each other at the Bayfield show this past August, so we got to know each other pretty well. He's a good dude.:)
 
Does he sing in Czeckloslovakian too?
Boy, knife people are a multi-talented bunch! :D
 
There has been a lot of shows, past and present, that can kill a makers drive. What is worst, is killing a maker's WIFE's drive. That can put a maker into a new line of work FAST.

I'm on my 2nd wife, #1 didn't really back my knifemaking. #2 {Myra} has been wonderful! I'll tell you, it's hard to go 5 months without selling anything! The wives need a BIG HAND from us all.

Who really knows how many trend setters have fallen by the wayside.

I've know several, that made great knives, that sold their equipment and got out. The next time you customers look a knife over, please, at least ask the maker how much it is, and tell them it's worth it. Even if you don't buy it, you might keep him going. Then a few years later see him in Blade, knives Illistrated, or Tactical knives.

"Cross the line" PLEASE always ignore it!
 
Glad of the feed back from you guys who are more or less affirming what I thought about and enjoyed about buying knives from makers I met at the BAKCA show but never heard of before. I don't remember Derek Graley having any folders on his table, but its possible he had sold them all by the time I got to him (BAKCA this year was not a slow show from what I could see). Then again, I wasn't looking for folders that day, so I might not have noticed.

I've been using what I bought, and now have yet something else to try, a little longer and a little thinner from Laurence Segal, not to mention something in the works from Taz... I'll try to put some better pics up this weekend.

Am happy to help out new makers by affirming their skills, but for this process to gain momentum on its own, their resale value must remain close to their initial cost at least. If I buy 10 knives to try different makers and styles I end up with maybe 3 I really want to keep and use. The other 7 have to be sold back into the market, or at least that's what I'd like to be able to do. Have not had much luck with that process over here though...
 
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