Custom, handmade, benchmade, handforged, cnc .........

MaxTheKnife

MaxTheKnife

Joined
Aug 19, 2000
Messages
643
It's all very tiring isn't it? I just read the latest ramblings in the current Blade Mag and it just seems like a never ending story. I don't understand the big deal. Maybe it's just my present position in the knifemaking world.

My shop is named 'Ogg Custom Knives' and has been since the late 60's. Bob Ogg founded it when he started his adventure in knifemaking. To me, he was a true 'Custom Knife Maker'. People ordered knives and he made them. Pure stock removal, but he made them from start to finish, each and every one with his two hands in his shop. No, or at least very few patterns to go by. All by his hand to eye coordination. Custom or handmade? Hell, I don't know. Bob said he was a custom maker. That was good enough for me.

Now since Bob passed on I've been having a terrible time with keeping my eye on the ball as far as the business goes. I'm not one to follow every whim of the knifemaking industry. And I'm not swayed by all the high tech terms and methods being used by the new up and coming makers. And I'm no financial genius. But to me, a knife is a knife is a knife. Do I sound a little complacent in a stiff marketplace? Well, consider this:

I'm comparatively new in this field. I started in '94 as an apprentice under Bob Ogg. He dubbed me a Journeyman in late '96 on fixed blades and folders. According to him, I had reached his level of skill and ability (he was getting old about that time) and now needed to start making my way into the world of knifemakers. Man, was I ever excited! But I bombed out before I ever really got started. I flopped around trying to decide what to do with my skills and finally just wound up making knives part time until his death in May of '99. I started my journey as a 'Custom Knife Maker' in January of 2000. I had arrived.

But I continually struggled with every aspect of my knifemaking efforts. From record keeping to a proper fit & finish. I couldn't decide what the best way to approach the market was. Bob had taught me how to make knives, but I was having to learn how to be a 'Knifemaker' on my own. No big deal you say? Ok, I can accept that. But in all my thinking while getting on with the business of knifemaking I came to this one question that begs to be answered.

When does a knife stop being a knife? A knife is a knife right? Prove it, I say. I make knives for a living. And whether they're handmade, benchmade, custom, cnc'd, milled or whipped up with help from a genie in a bottle, is it a knife or isn't it? All these petty arguments about what is and isn't a handmade knife make me tired. Bob was a member of the Knifemakers Guild in the beginning. I'm not certain, but I think he was one of the founding or at least original members. He talked about it a little but had bitter memories about the Guild and the political bs that went on. And that was back in the early 70's! He didn't elaborate on what the bs was all about but I have a pretty good idea.

Hey, I'm proud to call myself a knifemaker. No doubt about it. But I no longer wish to be known as a 'Custom Knife Maker'. And I really don't care what anybody else chooses to call me. I now declare myself to be an 'Independent Knife Maker'. Is that clear enough? Ogg Independent Knifeworks to be exact. I make knives start to finish right here on Dug Mountain in Paris, Arkansas. When you want to use one it will cut stuff. If it won't cut stuff I'll fix it. If I can't fix it I'll replace it or refund your money. What kind of knife is it? Well, I don't know the proper term but I made it my very own self. And it's the very best I can accomplish with what I have available to me. It's a knife is all.

Have I opened a can of worms? Yeah sure. But whether it means a hill of beans to anybody or not I've said my peice. And I know what I am. I'll get back to my knives now.
 
Ahhhhhh Max my friend, what's in a name?
I have one Bowie made by Max, and we've talked about several more. I personally don't care if he calls them Huey, Dewey and Louie. Max Burnett makes a hell of a knife. Not only that, when I come up with a new knife I want to have made, it doesn't matter if he's made that kind of knife before, he'll say, "I'll give it a shot." What more could you ask of a "Custon Knife Maker"? Max was kind enough to lend me a video of Bob Ogg making a knife from scratch, and Bob was a character. Guess what? So is Max.

Max, don't let the names, terms and symantics get in the way of what you do. Make your knives your way. Take everything you've learned from Bob, the ABS, the makers here and through your own efforts, and make the best knife you can. I see a great future for you, and I'm proud to know you and to call you my friend. ;)
 
Thanks Phil. I love you man! :)

I guess what I'm getting at with my post has more to do with labels than anything else. I'm a part of this knifemaking community and it makes a difference to me how people see me in the scheme of things. I either cleared things up or really muddied the water. I'm passionate about my craft and feel secure in my position as a knifemaker. Your confidence in me makes it all worth while. Even if you're the only one.
 
Such a post could, at times, open the proverbial "Pandora's Box", but I tend to think that most of us are starting to reach the conclusion that there are many ways to an end, today.

That "end" is the production of a quality knife, by whatever means it takes, whether it is CNC, or forged, handmade, whatever that means by today's standards.

IMHO, it is the quality of the end result that matters.

Go for it and keep up the good work.:)
 
AMEN! All this stuff has me not knowing what to call myself, and my knives. In short, I make the knives and my father-in-law makes the sheaths. Am I a custom maker? Some say if you make 2 knives alike it's not a "custom".

I think some people need a life.
 
Personally I like Max's definition. We have written a book on the subject with a few "R" rated chapters mixed in here and there.

Personally it really does not matter and here is my reasoning.

Over the years I have come to know what I like. The knives I really enjoy range from Dick Atkinson folders (Dick is pretty much a human knife-making machine) to higher end sole authorship fixed blades and folders. I just took delivery of a wharncliff with beautiful coco bolo scales around a TI frame and love it. It is Shaded Dudes 3rd folder. After handling a Reeve Mnandi at Blade, I will own one eventually. The thing that adds the most enjoyment are the people. Worst thing is that I can not afford a knife from all the people I want to own a knife from. Best thing is that even if I do not own one of their knives a lot of good friendships have been made.

I had a friend who was trying to make a decision on making or having a supplier cut a specific feature he uses on occasions. So far he has always done them himself. I tried to look at it from all points of view. This is a maker who does everything with basic tools and basic machines and results in extra fine work. He loves making knives by hand. He was very much concerned about his decision. The thought that came was to try it out at the same time when he got the itch to do one by hand (and I know he will on occasions) inform and charge accordingly. I am sure that there are others members here that participated in this semi-recent "poll". ;)

Folks, as a buyer it really does not matter (other than we deal with knives made by individual makers in this forum).I have a well used Dozier that ran less than 150 with three sheaths. I bet he made a bunch of them and I love the knife. Just got a 2BK from Darrel and Rob. It is one of 10 with serial numbers. We can argue all day as to if it is custom or not and it will not mean a hill of beans to me since I really enjoy carrying and using the knife.

On the other hand Bud has a pic of one of my Dellana folders on Knives international. I enjoy it too. She did everything from the pin-stock up (other than make and facet the stones, iron, gold and black lip :). There was a three year wait on it with lots of conversations and a friendship resulted. The main thing the knives I happen to collect have in common is the quality of the person who made the knife and the fact that I like the knife. I have always stuck by those basic thoughts as a collector and they have never failed.

From any point of view, you've gotta tip your hat to the makers who do it all well and the makers that keep pushing their own envelopes. Many have taken advantage of and learned to use the new technology and have continued making their one of a kinds to order. I think that is way cool and a smart move that covers the gambit for us knife nuts.


Key here is that their are a lot of makers and each is different and a little independant just by the nature of what it takes to make knives. It is a good thing we as collectors have so many choices. It would be a good thing if we could recognize that there are so many choices and if we could revel in them rather than argue or hold one "method" over another it would be even better.
 
I am also tired of these pointless arguments over "custom-made vs. handmade vs. benchmade vs. pomade". Max got it exactly right. The only thing that matters is the knife. Put whatever label on it you like. It doesn't change anything. Either the knife does what you want it to do, or it doesn't.

Labels are for marketing, not knifemaking.

Also, Phil isn't the only one with confidence in Max. Max is about as good a person as you will ever find. He is also serious about his knifemaking. I have no doubt that he will only become more successful as time goes on.
 
Well, I have to admitt that I'm really glad that my post wasn't interpreted as a troll post or sumpin like that. I am genuinely interested in the definition of knives in our time. Who makes what and how they make it is important. But, it's not the most important thing. The important thing is the knives. Are we happy with them? Do they do what they are supposed to? Are they worth what we pay for them? Hell, I collect knives too. But I'll admitt that I trade for most of the ones I collect. However, that doesn't change the intended performance level for the knife. A knife should perform as well as the maker says it will. If it don't, then it's not really a knife in my opinion. It's just a product of the maker. When is a knife not a knife? That's what I really hope to find out here.

I really appreciate the comments so far. I genuinely hope that this thread will generate some concrete information for makers like me to go on. Is there a market for just plain old knives that do what we say they'll do? I think so. That's what I'm in the business for. I have nothing against art knives or even pretty knives. But they need to do what the maker says they'll do and be worth the price you pay for them. Am I off the mark here? I sure don't mean to step on any toes. I just want to learn something that I can use in order to fill the niche I've chosen. I feel it's my calling in life and I'm persuing it with all that I am.
 
As long as the knife is finished correctly, and performs up to my expectations I am going to be satisfied. I could not care less how it's made.

I hope we can put the shovel away real soon. A custom knife, made by hand, in a dark smity, in the back woods, by a lone craftman, without electrical tools, in the traditional way, that does not perform,... is still a piece of $hit.

n2s
 
That's a very unique way of putting it n2s. I think you hit the nail right on the head. Every maker I've met that's worth his salt is very proud of their knives. Reguardless of what their processes are. They know how the blade was created from start to finish. And they'll tell you exactly what makes that knife unique and special if you'll stand still long enough and listen.

Gus hit on something that made alot of sense to me and caused me to look at things in a new light. The knifemakers market is very diverse. And it's obviously customer driven. Every knife sale is controlled by the buyer to a certain extent. The customer will absolutely make it very clear what he or she is looking for. I know this sounds pretty basic but it gets right down to the reason there is a market for knives at all. To me, the customer has the most important responsibility when buying a knife. During the bargaining phase they are responsible for getting all of their questions answered to their satisfaction.

Lets use a knife show for an example. I personally think it's totally unreasonable to expect a maker to explain his business concepts, knifemaking methods and processes and material preferences to each and every customer that comes along. He's there to answer questions and sell knives. Obviously, the makers that have their stuff all in one sock have business cards and and handouts for the idly curious and the very serious. But Mr. customer is going to have to ask all the right questions in order to be totally satisfied with any knife he purchases, custom order or otherwise. Think about it. That's the most important part of the entire knifemaking process. The sale. So why does there have to be a distinction in the knife making process at all? Things that make you go hmmmm.....
 
Hi Mike! No, I probably won't make the Mesquite show. Too much going on here at home to get away. Which tree you talking about? I remember something about a tree but not perzactly what. If you're talking about that big old walnut stump, no, I didn't get it milled up yet. I just trimmed off all the gnarly roots and it's ready for the mill now. I sawed plumb through a piece of sandstone that was imbedded in one of the roots and plumb ruint my chain and bar on my saw. He he.
 
Max, I don't know how anyone could have possibly taken your first post as a troll. It was a heart felt response to what you see happening in the knife industry, and it made a lot of sense.

Some people seem to take this custom, handmade, benchmade, semi-production thing way to serious. Everytime I see this come up I wonder why it is considered such a big deal.

I personally aquire knives because I like them. I see a knife and immediately know that I have to have it. The fact that the blade might have been laser cut, or CNC profiled, or profiled by a helper does not enter into the equation.

I respect your point of view and agree with it. I also think that you make some incredible knives.
 
Max,

Whatever you call what you are doing is alright by me, cause you do it darn well. As you well know knives here are normally on a very temporary stay basis, but once in a while I like one enough to keep it and put it in my personal stash.

That stag Bowie with the cable Damascus blade that you made for me is one of the ones in that stash and it is gonna stay there. :D

So whatever you want to call yourself; custom maker, handmade maker, Independant Maker is ok by me. Change the name to anything you want just keep making dem great knives. :) You could work on your speed a bit though. ;)
 
Thanks Keith. Very kind of you to say so buddy. I guess the reason I thought my post might be interpreted as a troll type thing is because I just let it all hang out. I told it how I really see it and figured that may be offensive to some. And I figured others would think I was just trying to make trouble. Well, I've seen some pretty good threads about this topic but they all seemed to be lukewarm and never got anywhere. Too many folks concerned about stepping on toes or hurting delicate feelings. I think it's important to get things out in the open and clear things up once and for all. Set a standard, so to speak. If you make knives, you're a knife maker. Thats the long and the short of it.

If we're knifemakers I say that we define who we are and what we do. We are the heart of the knifemaking equation. So why let some outside source name what we do? Whether it's a magazine or an organization. I just don't see it. Not that it really makes chicken squat to me. I'll keep doing what I'm doing reguardless of what others think about it or wish to call it. I'm a knifemaker. That's just what I do.
 
Well said, everyone! Words are just words, a knife is a knife! I'm going to keep buying what I like and making what I want to make, no matter what kind of label someone else puts on them.:)
 
Hey Don Stabbo, Les would be so ashamed of you. You ain't been doing your homework have you? ;) Haste makes waste. The slow blade penetrates the sheild. The hurryder I go the behinder I get. If a thing's worth doing, it's worth doing right. Why do today what you can put off till tomorrow. Hmmm, I know there's more of em. Come on folks, a little help here......

:D :D :D
 
Max I totally agree. The knives I use as my
EDC are a Tom Mayo TNT
Bob Terzuola MK-1 take turns
Chris Reeve Sebenza
I like them all,each one is unique and that's
the reason I collect. Forged,stock removal
CNC makes no diffrence. As long as I like
the design and they function well that's all
I care about.Semantics hell,I want quallity.
Ron
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top