Custom, Mid Tech, or Production?

T. Erdelyi

T. Erdelyi

Joined
Feb 3, 2001
Messages
32,359
The lines are getting blurry, before a custom knife was all hand made, now powered tools are acceptable, some preproduction work is ok to reduce manufacturing costs.

Here's a list of makers/manufacturers, where do they fit in the Custom, Mid Tech, or Production hierarchy.

Boye:
William Henry:
MOD:
CRK:
Blackie Collins:
Ed Halligan:
Fred Carter:
Dozier:
CRKT:
Lone Wolf:
Kershaw:
Bench Made:
Bench Mark:
Purdue:
Viele:
Al Mar:
Terzuola:
Szabo:
Anza:
Spyderco:
Brian Tighe:
Busse:
Simonich:

That's a few for now. :confused:
 
Here is my take

Boye:N/A
William Henry:Production
MOD:Production
CRK:Production
Blackie Collins:Production (However he may have customs/mitechs too)
Ed Halligan:N/A
Fred Carter:Production models out/ May also make customs
Dozier:I would like to know about this one too
CRKT:Production
Lone Wolf:Production
Kershaw:Production
Bench Made:Production
Bench Mark:Production
Purdue:Custom (However he collaborates on production models)
Viele:Custom (However he collaborates on production models)
Al Mar:Production
Terzuola:Custom / Also has collaborations and Midtechs
Szabo:Custom (However he collaborates on production models)
Anza:Custom (knives are made from files /May have more than one maker)
Spyderco:Production
Brian Tighe:Custom (However he collaborates on production models)
Busse:Production (However they have a custom shop too)
Simonich:Mid Tech (No customs anymore since his passing)
 
Sorry, I should have specified. N/A means my opinion is Not Available on said makers as I am not familiar with their work :)
 
I know what you mean T. When I show folks one of my CRK knives I have a very difficult time deciding whether to explain that it is and isn't a production knife or that it is and isn't a custom knife. I usually end up saying it's a production knife but I do that with tongue firmly planted in cheek. ;)
 
Whenever this question comes up, it's always interesting. What we need before we categorize, though, is to define what we mean by production, mid tech, and custom.

True customs are knives made by one maker to a customer's specifications. We could allow similar knives made by that maker to a few standard patterns and available for order, especially if the maker is prepared to modify the standard models, and even more so if the standard models are made with a natural variance at the maker's discretion..

Knives made to Chris Reeve, William Henry, or TiNives standards of materials and fit and finish will rival customs, but they are standard models produced with a big technological assist. The custom level of final fitting makes a simple production designation difficult.

I don't know what a mid tech designation is supposed to be. It seems to be used for high quality production knives from originally custom operations. That puts it in the same class as Chris Reeve, William Henry, or TiNives, for example.

I think production should be limited to knives assembled on a production line by workers who wouldn't necessarily be able to design and build a knife on their own. The parts can come from anywhere and be assembled in a repetitious routine. Done right, this can produce excellent products, but like good sausage, it doesn't do to look too closely into the manufacturing process :D
 
Mid-Techs are knives that have parts that are pre-cut (laser/CNC etc.) but are then hand finished by the maker. I.e. Ken Onion and Neil Blackwood with very little or no difference at all from a full custom.

I think you also need to add the classification of semi-production to fit knives that are made in small shops and are hand finished by a small group of people, preferably by the same person all the way through. This would cover operations such as CRK, WH and Randall.
 
A lot of makers like myself have two different lines. I have my customs where I do all of the work on each knife except in some cases heat treating. My other line is more semi production where I use modern technology to assist in preparing raw materials along with my hand fit and finish. I mark these knives differently. It all boils down to being honest in how you make the knives. The customer will make the choice based on quality, price and customer service.

Bobby
 
A quality knife is a quality knife....period....no matter how it was made. This debate usually gets pretty heated. As long as you are happy with it, does it really make a difference?

Paul
 
Accepting the definitions and explanations by BurkStar and Bobby Branton, and comparing them to Chris Reeve's work, I would say the final product and the company behind it is what matters.

Comparing my Darrell Ralph Madd Maxx to my Camillus CUDA Maxx, I would say both knives are beautiful and reliable, and I'm more concerned with the design, materials, and fit & finish than with a sliding defintion of which category they might fit into.

Look at the difference between a Spyderco Delica and a Spyderco Persian, two production knives by the same company, but a noticeable difference in ... what? Elegance?

But I can see where categorization has some value in helping newer knife knuts figure out why the prices differ so much among reasonably similar knives. :D
 
Bob Dozier has two lines. One marked Arkansas Made, that are totally made by Bob and the other marked Arkansas Knives, that have a fair amount of outsourced work. Therefore Bob would have knives that are considered custom and also mid-tech.
 
I'm with PWork.

The bottom line is quality, regardless of how it's made. I feel that devising categories and etc. is pointless, because how the knife is made really has nothing to do with how well it performs or how well it's put together.
 
DaveH said:
I'm with PWork.

The bottom line is quality, regardless of how it's made. I feel that devising categories and etc. is pointless, because how the knife is made really has nothing to do with how well it performs or how well it's put together.
Click to expand...

I think whether it is important to categorize knives would be thought of much differently by those that purchase knives only to use them, and by those that collect knives.
 
I would classify the folders as production. The fixed blades are cast, and the castings are sent to J.P. Holmes for finishing. I guess I would classify the fixed blades as mid tech or semi-custom, because there is still so much hand work done after the blade is cast.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
It's the question that interests me more than the classification.

What are the definitions for Custom, is a makers knife any less custom because he had Paul Bos heat treat it or Daryl Meier forge the damascus billet.

Is it any more production when an old time Cutler working for Case or Schrade in the 20's hand ground, assembled and finished a knife, even though he didn't design it, but he did bring an idea that was someone else's to fruition.

Is it any more a Mid Tech if I find a manufacturer in Taiwan to stamp, cnc grind and assemble a knife designed by me and made from all high end materials.

CRKT seems to do alright producing affordable versions of Carson, Tighe, and Crawford designs, would these be considered Mid Tech or Custom Production if the Materials were better and the fit and finish were under closer scrutiny.

We live in a very exacting world where definitions determine validity of evrey day words and classifications.

Maybe we need to define less and accept what we hold at face value, the 70 year old Case I carry has the fit and finish of a custom knife, the materials for their time were top notch, did it really matter that it doesn't fit any classification? No, it's a well made knife and bottom line it's all that matters.

It's just funny how different people see the same thing in different ways.
 
"What are the definitions for Custom, is a makers knife any less custom because he had Paul Bos heat treat it or Daryl Meier forge the damascus billet?"

No, but if he had someone else waterjet the blade, used CNC profiling services from another company, and had his "helper" assemble the knife, then he signed it, well, that would be a different story.

There are lots of definitions that float around. Some are accurate, some are not. I guess we all want to know who made our knife, and how. That "HOW" is the ticket to what the knife gets classified as.

If you want a relaxation in the terms for classification, well, that is probably not going to happen any time soon. If you think we are overly anal retentive about classification, you should take a look at the world of Nihonto (Japanese Swords & fittings) sometime. :D

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Here is the scoop on Mid-Tech.

The term was invented and first used by Ken Onion. Several makers (myself included) have gotten his permission to use the term. The term has now become overused by people who do not know the original meaning or intent.

My shop produces the largest amount of REAL Mid-Teched knives in the world (several hundred per week).

A Mid-Tech IS NOT just a production version of a custom knife. It is a middle of the way blending between the worlds of high technology production and true handmade.

In a Mid-Tech many of the processes are done by computorized machines. These steps include:

Profiling
Beveling
Handle Shaping
Heat Treating

However, all remaining steps are done by hand by one person. That is what seperates it from production. It is not passed down an assembly line of unskilled or semi-skilled workers doing one job over and over. Every knife that comes out of my shop goes through my hands.

From assembly to surface finishing, handle finishing, lock facing, anodizing, etching, marking, sheath making, sharpening ect. In many cases even drilling, reaming and tapping operations are done in the same manner as one a custom. All the steps that add the fine touches of fit and finish are all done by hand, by one skilled knifemaker.

Mid-Teching allows the custom maker to offer his customers a handmade quality product at a fraction of the price of a custom. It also allows knifemakers to in a way act as their own small factory doing small production runs of 50-100 units of their most popular styles. Makers no longer have to wait for the factories to make them offers, they can make themselves their own offers.
 
RW thanks for your answers, at least the Mid Tech Definition is clearer to me and makes sense, the other definitions are still pretty vague.
 
RW has sound definition. I will agree that the term "MidTech" has been way overused. Mostly by those who are not necessarily involved in the knife retail industry. And who do not know of the terms' origins. We should all be careful in labelling a makers knives into certain categories if we do not know all the facts. Or if there are no concrete definitions to follow. If the 4 processes/ steps that RW pointed out above as being part of the "Midtech" process, then a Dozier knife does NOT fall into this label. The Dozier Arkansas Knives that AG Russell carries ALL have their HEAT TREAT, final profiling, handle installation/ shaping, final edge applied and kydex sheath made at the Dozier shop.

N.
 
The Doziers sound more on the lines of what old schoolers would call benchmade. (that was before the Benchmade company of course). A "benchmade" knife was made fully by hand but in a production line method. So one guy did all the profiling, another all the beveling, another all the handle shaping, another all the sheathwork, ect. TOPs Knives are another example of a "benchmade" type knife. Alot of small production shops would fall into this catagory. This was just historically needed due to the fact that no one model sold enough units to warrent the investment that it used to take to offset the cost in using CNC technology.

This is starting to change however. With upgrades in technology, things get cheaper and cheaper. The costs of laser and waterjet cutting have dropped to the point where almost any shop can afford to have them done. And at only $12K a basic waterjet machine is within the budget of many midsize shops. Also with the invention of blade grinding machines, you can now have a blade ground to a 400grt finish for less then the cost of a single 50grt belt. So now instead of needing to produce runs of 1000 units, if you are doing at least 50 units of a single model you can afford to take avantage of computor technology.

Also back to the Mid-Tech issue. Not all Mid-Techs are the same. Some, like the Simonichs, I get with fully shaped handles (due to the CNC gunner grips) that only require clean up sanding to remove the CNC marks. Others only come as blades and I have to make the handles fully by hand from scratch. Some go into factory BlackHawk or SOE sheaths and others get custom leather or kydex sheaths. It really is a case by case bases. But I think you have an idea of what the intent behind the process is.
 
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