Do I need to baby a Japanese kitchen knife?

Daniel L

Daniel L

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I definitely don't use a dishwasher or glass chopping boards, but my Henckels 4 star knives have survived being the sink with other dishes and in the drying rack with spoons, forks and other metal utensils. I know the edges are thicker and the steel is softer, but what I lose in cutting performance and edge holding, I gain in "day to day durability", and not having to baby them too much.

So if I go down the path of Japanese knives with thin and hard blades (and I want to stay with stainless) - it sounds like I need to be careful with them or they will get chipped. I can use my Henckels 8" cooks knife to chop a raw chicken (hardly a challenge) but it sounds like that would be a no no for most Japanese knives.

Are Japanese knives really only for those who will treat their knives delicately? Or am I over thinking it and they just need a little more care?
 
"Japanese kitchen knife" covers a broad category, from big thick debas used for parting out large fish, sturdy honesukis intended for breaking down poultry, and the Japanese interpretation of the French chef's knife, the gyuto (cow knife) that many people are thinking about when they talk about Japanese knives.

My wife has yet to chip out any of our Shun kitchen knives, and she's not exactly delicate on them. And they are a brand with a reputation (though not in my experience) for being prone to chipping if abused. They are stainless (VG-MAX and SG-2), and not especially difficult to sharpen on a set of water stones. While being made in Japan, they are also a mainstream commercial line targeted primarily at Western consumers, so maybe not what you are talking about.

We do hand wash and dry them after use, and put them back in the knife block, so they aren't clanking around in a dishwasher or banging around in the sink, and we use decent wooden cutting boards (or I least I do, I don't know what the wife does when I am not watching). But they've held up fine, and I enjoy using them.

It's pretty much going to come down to your technique, your cutting board(s), and what you are planning on cutting.

You can certainly find ultra-thin, high hardness "laser" type Japanese knives, but you'd only own one of those if your food prep style or needs required one, and it would probably not be your primary knife for all purposes. Because that's not what they are for. They are for very thin and precise cuts in soft proteins and vegetables.

I'd not use one for "chopping" a whole bone-in chicken. That's why kitchen knives come in different styles - you can own more than one, so different ones for different purposes. Keep the Henckel's for the heavy chopping if that's something you do regularly.

Also, whatever kind of knives you own, they are only as good as your tools, ability and willingness to keep them sharp. You may already have the right tools but something to keep in mind.
 
I for one think that a knife is a tool, and will only last as long or perform as good as the user using it. Basically, a sharp knife, whatever style, will be able to handle at least 90% of your kitchen needs, though with some specialized models you can do a better job. So according to what you need or want, a Japanese blade would be a nice acquisition, but like I said before, will only perform and last according to how you treat it. And of course, just like with Western models, there are good and there are bad Japanese blades.
 
I use a steel before each use, hand wash and dry immediately after use and find I usually only have to sharpen it once a year and then only on a fine ceramic stone or rod. The steel is very hard and coupled with a fine bevel, 12 to 14 degrees, requires a bit of care when cutting near bone but other than that it's a great knife.
 
Yes.

Stainless in general may be less prone to staining, but may be more prone to chipping at a particular hardness in my experience.

If you’re going down the path of Japanese food knives, realize that some edges are extremely fragile and will disintegrate if used in the normal manner of many home cooks. While some Japanese chefs knives are robust and multi-purpose, most are more refined/delicate and are designed to make clean cuts on soft foods.

It is important to know what you’re getting and what it’s designed to do. If a single bevel sushi knife hits bone - even a flimsy fish bone - there’s a good chance for edge damage.
 
Ourorboros said:
No steels on actual Japanese knives please. Harder translates to brittle.
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I've been using a fine steel on my knives for more years than I can count and the blades are shaving sharp and have never been damaged. If the honing steel was softer than the blade it would wear, if the honing steel is harder than the blade the blade will be honed. The honing steel must be fine textured or smooth and decent quality, a cheap course steel will damage any knife blade.

Edited to add that I don't buy any knives with a Rockwell hardness above 60, I find them too brittle to be practical and they require ceramic sharpening rods instead of honing steels. Consumer grade Japaneses knives typically run in the range of 58 to 62.
 
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Squid61 said:
I've been using a fine steel on my knives for more years than I can count and the blades are shaving sharp and have never been damaged. If the honing steel was softer than the blade it would wear, if the honing steel is harder than the blade the blade will be honed. The honing steel must be fine textured or smooth and decent quality, a cheap course steel will damage any knife blade.

Edited to add that I don't buy any knives with a Rockwell hardness above 60, I find them too brittle to be practical and they require ceramic sharpening rods instead of honing steels. Consumer grade Japaneses knives typically run in the range of 58 to 62.
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I regularly shop and occasionally buy Japanese knives. Outside of Fujiwara FKM I can't think of any under 60 HRC. Even a Shun is over 60. No idea about Global, but then again I don't care either.
Point is that OP is buying a Japanese knives and odds are that the hardness is over 60. No steels.
 
I just received a Shun Classic Nakiri - mainly because it was a crazily good price (far below Amazon prices) as an experiment.

It's definitely ground pretty thin so I can see where the potential for edge damage can occur.

I don't abuse my kitchen knives but it looks like it will need a little more conscious effort to look after.
 
It's a decent knife, but the $145 they want is just wrong. There are far better for the money, especially if you can handle using carbon steels.
It's a bit thick for my tastes, they need to taper down from their 3mm stock. But it will take a fine edge.
 
It is not just about csrbon steels needing more care. Japanese kitchen knives, actual Japanese designs, made for Japanese chefs tend to be run hard. Western chef knives are typically more robust and run softer.

There are many japanese made knives that are built for and more in line with western styles and uses.

Important to know the difference and important ro treat knives as they are designed to be used and cared for.

I have western/US designed and made simple carbon steel Old Hickory that are more robust, and run softer than strictly necessary to accommodate harder use.

They, however never get set in the sink with the dishes. They get washed by me, and dried off by hand and placed back where they belong. One reason is that some of my knives are from my grandfather. My own father has told me stories of butchering their own cows and hogs as a child. His parents were children of the great depression. Those knives have lasted three generations now. With proper care, I hope to keep them in decent enough shape for my boys to have them.
 
jc57 said:
" the Japanese interpretation of the French chef's knife, the gyuto (cow knife)
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For the sake of accuracy, a Gyuto is short for "Gyuniku To" which literally translates to "Beef Knife".
The same character 牛 is read "Ushi" when used to mean a "cow".
 
Daniel L said:
I definitely don't use a dishwasher or glass chopping boards, but my Henckels 4 star knives have survived being the sink with other dishes and in the drying rack with spoons, forks and other metal utensils. I know the edges are thicker and the steel is softer, but what I lose in cutting performance and edge holding, I gain in "day to day durability", and not having to baby them too much.

So if I go down the path of Japanese knives with thin and hard blades (and I want to stay with stainless) - it sounds like I need to be careful with them or they will get chipped. I can use my Henckels 8" cooks knife to chop a raw chicken (hardly a challenge) but it sounds like that would be a no no for most Japanese knives.

Are Japanese knives really only for those who will treat their knives delicately? Or am I over thinking it and they just need a little more care?
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I am with you in that I don't baby my Henkels 4 & 5 star knives. I have been buying a few Wusthof classic knives that I don't baby either. If it comes to an 8-inch chef's knife I like the Wusthof better. But since you have an 8 inch chef knife you might think about a 11 or 12 inch chef's knife. I love my Henckel, 290 cm ,11 1/2 4-star knife for cutting chicken or making short work of a head of cabbage as the larger knife is a lot faster for me to use. I like having more knives as it works better for me as I feel like having the right knife is more fun. So, more is better in my mind. I am nobody but I have owned Henckel knives for more than 30 years. I grew up with my mother using Henkel knives. As I have hers now.
 
I got my Shun Nakiri for $85 new so it was a good deal for sure - now that I have had it for a few weeks I'm still curious how "brittle" the edge is.

I did reprofile to 17.5 degrees on my Ken Onion Blade Grinder - the factory edge of 15 degrees but not polished. I don't detect any less cutting performance and just gives me slightly more peace of mind, though I am rinsing and drying and hanging on the magnetic knife rack after use.

As reported the Shun Nakiri are a little hefty, about the same weight as my Henckels 8" Chef's knife. But so far, I am actually quite pleased with the cutting performance and use in the kitchen.
 
I had an Asian knife 25 years are so ago and it was not my cup of tea. I am going to stick with German knives besides I am now an old dog that does not want to learn new tricks. I had an old French made knife a Sabatier slicing knife which I liked real well but I gave it to my daughter. I like my knives to kind of match. I have a large kitchen with 2 knife blocks one Henckel block and 1 Wusthof block. My 30 or German knives are all mostly well used some of them were my mom's knives which I grew up with that may be approaching 50 years. What I have come to realize having lots of different kinds of knives is great because some knives do different tasks better so you can pick your knife for your task.

Good to hear you have a Work Sharp Ken Onion sharpener. With as many knives as I own, I gave up on manual sharpening a long time ago when the first Work Sharp came out. I think overall now my knives stay sharper using the electric sharpener. It just takes too long to sharpen by hand and I end up rotating sharp knives for dull knives not using the correct knife because I have not gotten around to sharpening knives. I can do it much quicker with a Work Sharp so I sharpen more. I do have a problem sharpening long thin knives keeping the edge straight with the narrow belt on the original Work Sharp. I hope the wider belt with the Ken Onion help with that.

I am going to try 17.5 degrees for my salmon knife and see how that goes. I don't like 20 degrees. I am still waiting for my Wusthof sushi knife, Friday, I think. My Ken Onion came today so I am fired up to sharpen knives. Do you think I can use 17.5 degrees for a Wusthof single bevel knife or do you think it will chip or roll? I may should use 20 for a single bevel Wusthof sushi knife? The sushi knife will be only used for sushi as we eat sushi a lot.
 
coxhaus said:
I am going to try 17.5 degrees for my salmon knife and see how that goes. I don't like 20 degrees. I am still waiting for my Wusthof sushi knife, Friday, I think. My Ken Onion came today so I am fired up to sharpen knives. Do you think I can use 17.5 degrees for a Wusthof single bevel knife or do you think it will chip or roll? I may should use 20 for a single bevel Wusthof sushi knife? The sushi knife will be only used for sushi as we eat sushi a lot.
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I have the Ken Onion with the Blade Grinder Attachment which absolutely rocks. Expensive but it's compact and gives me a ton of flexibility.

If you're single bevel 20 degrees would be equivalent to 10 degrees each side on a regular double bevel so that is pretty steep... so I'd start there and if you get it chipped it's easy and fast to repair on the Ken Onion.
 
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