Efficient silent takedown

L

logos

Joined
Nov 9, 2001
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194
From an earlier post on silent takedown of sentries.I wanted to start
a new thread so this would not get swallowed up in the long line of posts already on the subject.The neck,throat slash,subclavian artery route is a little antiquated.The reason being even after being cut the victim can still have time to pull the pin on a grenade,fire warning shots or resist and struggle drawing attention.I favor the more efficient method of blade throught the base of the skull,you encounter no bones knife goes directly into the brain and death is instant.You dont't leave as large an amount of blood on the ground
marking your spot.JMHO
 
I am not being a smartass, but how many times have you done said sentry removal?
 
are you asking over a lifetime, this week? what?

I prefer to think things like this as an effective negotiation tatic with hostile wittnesses for those pretrial meetings.

me "so, you say the light was Red when my client drove through it?"

them "yes, it was red..."

me "ok, was it red like that (points to a red square on the wall behind them)"
they turn ... then you help them to reconsider their answer....

thats pretrial negotiation with hostile wittnesses for you.:eek: :eek:

kidding.

Did finals last week, and I would have been grateful for a knife in my head during those.

Yes, that was just an example of my sick legal humor mixed with my sick tatical humor.
 
Yeah, but getting back to blood and guts....

The trouble with smashing or stabbing a soldier in the head is that most soldiers will be wearing some kind of helmet, although I admit irregulars, terrorists, guerrillas and so forth probably wouldn't be. I'm not exactly sure what area of the head you are talking about stabbing through, but I suspect it is a very small area and would be difficult to hit accurately and quickly at night and under stress. With the abundance of good, silenced firearms available these days, I really believe that sentry killing with knives, clubs, or garrots is a thing of the past. So-called "silent kills" are very hard to actually pull off even when well trained troops are using supressed firearms. The only one of these attempts I'm personally aware of happened in Vietnam. A guy on a project delta recon team shot an NVA in the chest with one of those supressed High Standard .22s. The recon guy was about ten feet away and saw the dust fly off the NVA's uniform. The NVA yelled "choi yoi!" and ran off. Of course one might say that he should have double-tapped the NVA in the head, (while shooting from the hip), then run in to finish him off with his tactical, killer-diller tomahawk, but all of this is easier said than done. Leigh
 
bribed wittnesses can still speak and be impeached. dead ones are harder to question unless you have a necromancer on hand.

well, that or a new-age-channeling person...
 
I think necks are hot, whould that make me a neck-romancer. Er, oh sorry that must be the bud light talking. I forgot this was a thread about knives and tactics.
 
Originally posted by logos
I favor the more efficient method of blade throught the base of the skull,you encounter no bones knife goes directly into the brain and death is instant.You dont't leave as large an amount of blood on the ground
marking your spot.JMHO
Click to expand...

Someone's been reading their Without Remorse, eh?

I offer up that attacking the central nervous system via small knife (anything short of decapitation) is pretty difficult. Going throught the skull is gonna take some strength. Hitting the spinal column is gonna take both accuracy and strength. Going through the eyes is a good test on accuracy. There is the temple, too, again required a decent dose of strength and accuracy. And, in all these cases, death is not assured (ever see the X-ray of the guy with the Ramboesque survival knife multiple inches into his cranium), much less the possibility of getting the blade stuck.

Of course, there is also the headgear question, already raised.

If the work absolutely can't be done with a silenced firearm, then machete is my next choice. Knife is most likely last, but you're not likely to have a good heavy claw hammer with you in the field, are you?

my 2 cents,
Joe S.
 
Machete to the neck and just remove the offending organ.

Cut the throat then stab the kidneys, while stomping the back of the knee.

Belt / 550 cord / Garrotte around the neck, turn, and flip. You'd be amazed at the amount of power you generate when doing this right - I tossed a guy about 6 feet in training.

There's plenty of efficient ways to take out sentries, but very very very few opportunities to do so when you are heading to the mall. Leave this to the trained professionals.

Kevin
 
*walking to the changing room*
"how many items sir?"
*thump*
Two. Two items...

Indeed, for most of us, this will never be an issue.
 
Thanks for the interesting variety of replies.In response to the other
methods mentioned being more viable than that being too difficult I offer this to consider and try to answer to the responses and please understand I am not baiting anyone.One2go fast on more than one occasion.This is a specialized technique and like anyother it is not difficult if you pratice the skill to master it because you will use it i.e. just like marksmanship no diff.I have seen illustrations of
knives into the skull and yes depending on what area of the brain is
contacted you may have a range of injuries of minimal to death.The specfic area in question is at the base of your skull if you press with two fingers you will find the area.This area is nor covered with bone it is very vulnerable.Spark yes you can train to do some amazing gruesome things in the military and this skill was acquired while in the military.I know that Greg and spark can appreciate the fact that this post was just sharing one of those tricks in the bag;like a kit bag in central America in the early 80's.
 
This is always an interesting subject:)

Often overlooked, for example, is the training of steathly movment from one place to another over all kinds of terrains and in all kinds of environments. If you can't sneak up on 'em, you can't engage 'em.

Bill Bagwell has voiced his strong belief that whacking the old noggin off with - in Bill's professional opinion - a good bowie knife is swift, silent, and effective. Same thought process as Spark expressed using a well sharpened machete. Agree at this end but the challenge is (a) getting there and (b) having the necessary room to generate an efficient swing / chop with correct angle to do the job in one stroke. Environment (bushy area, trees, furniture in the immediate area) will play big part in this technique.

Pure knife work is indeed a trained art. And you have to have equally trained empty hand skills as you are actually combining empty hand initial contact/control/disengagement techniques with the weapon technique. And, if the weapon technique fails to immediately end the contact, you'll have to transition to an empty hand killing technique (neck breaks, for example) or prepare for your world to cave in around you as the sneak attack becomes a loud brawl.

Or if you lose the knife during the approach or in initial contact (torn from grasp, stuck in and can't get unstuck, BREAKS at any point along the blade:mad:...

Hatchet work is way effective and the ATC VN Tactical Tomahawk was originally designed and fielded for just this kind of encounter. I'd go with the VN T-T in trained hands as primary means when using a "cold" weapon. Firearms either suppressed or not are preferred (Yep, sometimes you're just whacking the sentry or guard as prelim to open, all out attack or ambush. In this case it doesn't matter if noisy as the intent was not be effect a clandestine assault in the first place).

Good physical conditioning is a must. Solid upper body and arm strength, as well as solid gut and torso strength (for twisting and torquing the body during movement) cannot be understated. Leg power (control/choking/capturing techniques) and stamina (get out the Nikes for those daily jaunts around the track).

Best bet...don't get guard duty

:p
 
Wouldn't one normally being performing recon for a military organization? In that case, locate said sentries and outpost, fall back to safe locale, call in said target to HQ/support, paint it for them and watch it get vaporized. Go back in for cleaning up the remaining trash. :eek:

I'm actually joking around here. Seriously, though, does our military actually still routinely engage in much silent sentry removal these days? I understand that we send our personel to places all over the world for "business" that isn't in the news or public conciousness, and that you can't just call in fire in those situations, but I'm asking if silent sentry removal is at all common in most of our activities. Please educate me... :D
 
Yes, it does.

Not as much as it should.

In the end it is always the guy or gal on the ground who will have to do the job when all else fails, runs out of fuel, batteries go dead, or cloud cover prevents access.

Man will always be the determining factor.
 
Thanks for the info! I really didn't know we still did a lot of that activity. I actually know quite a few USMC recon folks, through my work and associates, and the discussion of silent sentry removal has never really been discussed much. That doesn't mean they don't do it, it's actually just something that hasn't come up in our conversations of tactics, strategy, hardware, etc. Interesting, very interesting. I'll have to bring it up next time we get to talk. Unfortunately, they're all deployed right now. Actually, let me rephrase that... Fortunately, they are all deployed. It's really comforting knowing these guys are out there protecting our freedoms. :)
 
Does it happen everyday? No.

Are the chances of it happening high? No.

Rangers, SF, RECON, CAG, DEVGRU, Girl Scouts, whomever are more likely to need it than anyone else, but every soldier should be well versed in the basics of the infantry soldier - and yes, to put it bluntly, even Special Forces operations are just high speed infantry tasks. They just get there faster, cooler, with nicer gear. :D

I'll agree with Greg on the stalking aspect, its something truly amazing to come up behind someone, making no sound at all, only to have them realize you are there because you <b>looked</b> at the back of their head. There's a reason why they tell you to concentrate on the person's fourth point of contact... this is a skill that needs significant work to be effective. I'm sure Mick or Greg will be able to go into more detail than I can.

Kevin
 
I believe the location referred to in the original post is the foramen magnum - a relatively large hole at the base of the skull where the spinal cord exits. This hole is usually only a few cm in diameter (the ones I've seen were about the size of a quarter, maybe slightly larger). Immediately below the foramen are the cervical vertebrae, their associated muscles/ligaments/disks, etc.. Getting a knife in there would be possible, just fairly difficult. You would need a relatively thin knife, and then have the "target" hold still long enough to insert the knife into this hole. This would not necessarily kill them right away - but you are now very close to the medulla, which controls cardiovascular/respiratory functions - damage to this would stop the heart/lungs from working properly, but even here, death is not instantaneous. It would be easier to use a suppressed pistol.
 
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