Elishewitz old vs. new!

G

greg c

Joined
Oct 9, 1998
Messages
490
In my quest for the perfect folder (lets not start that thread here, ok?) I have been looking at Allen's various designs, and although the Entity designs are cool I still am attracted to the old omega series that I originally drooled over when I first began my knife addiction. I would love to have an M5 with a spyderhole! My questions(s) are whether Allen still devotes any time to this series and if there are any major refinements the entity line has over the omega line. Consmetically you could make an argument, but in terms of function it seems like it will still come down to the user. Did I just answer my own question?

greg

By the way, his website has really gone to hell.
 
I can't speak for Allen, but he is a custom maker, and he was more than willing to make custom changes on his line for me. I think he still sells the Omega, so you can probably talk him into a special omega for you.

I'm pretty much with you, I like the entity series but I really like the Omega. He used to make two handles for this. One handle type had an index finger cutout and a palm swell. The other had the index finger cutout, a palm swell, then a dip for the pinky. Both handles are exceptionally ergonomic, but the 2nd one with the part that locks the pinky in is amazing. If he doesn't give you a choice of handle shape, mention that you want the old handle option that locks the pinky in -- he'll know what you mean.

I'd say call him

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
 
The new models look very sharp and the old ones were more tactical. He is a talented designer, but sometimes a bit sloppy - I think he gets the knives out too fast.
 
As far as sloppiness, I haven't noticed it except on his liner locks. His liner locks are too often a bit shakey. His customer service is excellent, though; just send it back to him and tell him to fix the lock up if you get a bad one.

Where else have you seen sloppiness, Fulcrum?

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com

[This message has been edited by Joe Talmadge (edited 19 November 1998).]
 
I have had 3 of his knives, 2 I sold because they just didn't strike my fancy the way I thougt they would. The 1 I kept is an Omega M6 (tanto blade with spyder hole and ergonomic handle.) This is still one of my favorite knives and always will be. As far as the new ones, I would like to have a Stryker or possible a Shadow, but I don't care much for the other ones. All 3 of the knives I have had locked up fine.
 
I agree with Joe about his liner locks. I have seen two which were sloppy. I saw one on a Specter at the New York show in April. Opening and closing didn't feel right. I discovered that the detent that holds the blade in the closed position was too large for the detent ball. The slop allowed the blade to open a small amount(enough that the tip is exposed)without resistance.

The second one I ordered through one of the reputable dealers. I noticed that the blade had a small rough spot. It coincided with one of the spacer pins. The thumb studs, which stop the blade travel in both directions, did not stop the blade from contacting the spacer. I shipped it back to Allen and he promptly repaired it although it was not to my satisfaction. The dealer allowed me to return it.

I did pick up a Ghost at the mentioned NY show and I am very happy with it. He has done a good job with it. My advice is to make sure you inspect any knife closely before purchasing or deal with a purveyor who accepts returns.
 
MIke-Your advice on inspecting knives by makers is an extremely valid one.
That is a rule that applies to ALL makers, not just Allen.

As far as custom makers go, Allen is one of the most prolific. He probably makes more hand-made tactical $3-400 folders than anyone except maybe Pat Crawford. (Im not including Sebenzas as hand made). His work has steadily improved over the years, and although he and I do not always agree as far as design and edge geometry, I consider him a friend, one of the best knifemakers in the business, and getting better every day.

I have owned 6-7 of Allens knives and 2 of them had to be returned, frankly because Im a picky bastard. Liner locks are much more difficult then they look, and "feel" is a subjective thing. A knife that "feels" great to you may be one I send back!

The latest Elishewitz knives are as well made as any in their price range. IMHO, the next step up in quality would be a Krait from Darrel Ralph, or maybe a Viele.


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Anthony P. Lombardo
-will destroy knives for
food-

 
Joe:

Right on with the liner locks - and a pretty important item.

Also, I noticed wobble on an M-5 he made for me. Tighten the pivot a bit and you can't open it. Lossen it a bit and the blade wobbles. I told him about it and he said that's what happens to knives as they wear. Then I told him the knife was almost unused.


Nice designs, but....

 
Anthony --

No disrespect to Elishewitz intended. I admire his design acumen enormously. He is one of the very very best at combining stunning aesthetics with incredible ergonomics, all in a working piece.

However, there's no getting around the problems with his liner locks. If it were just me, I'd back off a bit. But when I take other guys with me to shows, the two makers whose liner locks they inevitably comment on negatively are: Allen Elishewitz and Pat Crawford. When Allen does his liner locks right, they are incredible. But every year I hear someone say Allen is aware of his lock problems and looking into fixing them; then every year, I go by tables of Elishewitz knives, of which too many of them have easily-visible liner lock problems.

If you're a friend of Allen's, why don't you do this. Print out a copy of the Liner Lock Test FAQ and show it to him. If he takes 1 minute to do those tests, he will have caught most of the real howlers. If it weren't for the lock inconsistencies, he would be one of my very favorite makers.

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
 
Joe-I think you are seeing dramatically more problems with Allen and Pats stuff because there are frankly MORE of their 3-400 dollar knives out there then just about anyone else!

There is no doubt that Allens work is much better now then in the past. There is also no question that Pats knives are tougher now as well. The old, flimsy crawford liner lock is now made twice as thick, and his experience with the serious Kasper users is paying off as far as i can tell.

What do you hear about more often-broken down Chevy's or Peugots? Peugots suck, but because there are so may more Chevy's on the road, its just more common to see one thats screwed up. Same with the Elishewitz Crawford liner locks, IMHO. I see more "bad" Terzola's and Carsons too, its a volume thing IMHO not a percentage thing.

All of Allens knives at NY as far as I can tell would have passed muster (but there were only a few left when I got there...)

Im not being argumentative, I respect your opinion tremendously. I just know all liner locks, even the best have a shelf life. A knife made by Michael Walker thats flicked unmercilessly on a daily basis will require
as much tuning and re-fitting as anyones lock. Its the liner-lock design that sucks foremost, the execution second.



BTW, I wrote an article for TK last year along the same lines as the liner lock faq, but more in depth on "How to select a liner lock", it pointed out things like how to spot bas detents, weak locks, wobble, etc etc.

I'm sure it will never get published!

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Anthony P. Lombardo
-will destroy knives for
food-

 
Anthony,

I do like Allen's work. But comparing his knives to a Chevy or Ford is not fair. Custom knives are more in the Cadillac / Mercedes range. When I pay $300 - $400 for a knife I expect it to fuction well out of the box. Wear and tear is one thing. But when a significant number of new knives are out of adjustment or improperly done, then there is a problem.

If Allen spent a little more time on the QC before the sale, he would not have as many returns. As it stands right now, I would not buy one from him unless I could examine it beforehand.
 
Mike-I wasnt comparing Allens knife to a Chevy.

I was using the "Chevy" analogy to explain the difference between a knifemaker like Alen that may churn out 1000 knives a year, and one that may make 50. If they both have a 25% return rate, who's "defective knives" would we hear about?

I would bet that on this and other forums, more forum members own handmade folders by Allen Elishewitz than anyone else (not including Reeve as I dont consider them handmade). If that is true,and all else being equal, wouldnt you hear more negative comments about his stuff than anyone else?

Or If you go to a show and inspect 20 of his folders and his competitor only has 5 for sale, on which table will you find MORE defects? Allens, of course.

I think most customers would be happier if they bought EVERY custom knife in person or from a reputable dealer that closely inspects their inventory.

So, lets persuade Allen to start making AXIS locks, that will end these type of threads forever!

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Anthony P. Lombardo
-will destroy knives for
food-

 
Fair Enough !
smile.gif

 
I'd say Chris Reeve's Sebenza is just as "hand-Made" as the knives of Crawford or Elishewitz and I don't think I've ever heard anybody complain about one of his locks - and he makes a few knives...

BTW: Peugeot's don't suck. They're one of the very best French autos.

[This message has been edited by Kevin Wilkins (edited 24 November 1998).]

[This message has been edited by Kevin Wilkins (edited 24 November 1998).]
 
Kevin-I agree that Sebenza locks are much
better than standard liner locks.

However to say that they are just as handmade
is not particularly accurate, since the handle, clip and all small parts are are turned off a CNC Mill. The blade bevel is ground by hand, but how do you compare that to all of the handles and scales that Allen and Pat bandsaw out by hand?

I have no problem with how Chris makes his knives, although he doesnt make ANY any more, but mostly runs his business, and a helper does the grinding.

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Anthony P. Lombardo
-will destroy knives for
food-

 
Anthony,

Allen E. has a plasma cutter in his shop and I believe he cuts his pblades and a number of other pieces out with it. I personally don't think there's any difference in what type of a machine a maker uses or has, it's still the skill of the operator that counts as well as the solidity of the design. The problem with precision tools is that they cost a bunch of dough and you gtta really know what you're doing. I think it's unfair to say a maker's work isn't "handmade" - or less handmade than someone elses - simply because he uses better tools to turn a higher precision product.

I've meet both Reeve and Elishewitz and handled both of their folders. Both are very nice people and make fine products, but Reeve is a trained machinist and I think it shows in both his designs and in his products.

BTW, the man who does most of Reeve's grinding isn't what you'd call a "helper". Chris told me he's a master at grinding blades.

[This message has been edited by Kevin Wilkins (edited 01 December 1998).]
 
Kevin, with all due respect, the question posed in this thread is regarding Old Elishewitz knives vs. Newer Elishewitz knives.

I stand by my comment that the newer ones are as nice as anyones liner lock in that price range. They still have all the inherent flaws and weaknesses of a liner lock, however.

You compared Reeve's "Frame-lock" to a Liner lock. Is that fair? Although similar, the fram-lock solves many of the problems of a liner lock. I also wasn't comparing any Elishewitz to the precision of a Sebenza. Most makers dream of that level of tolerance, fit , and finish.

In regards to Reeve's blade grinder, Scott Cook is an accomplished knifemaker on his own. I agree that Reeve's products are more uniform, more precise etc etc than just about
ANYONES.

However, To call a Sebenza handmade is inaccurate in my opinion, and its certainly not "custom". The Knifemakers guild feels the same way.

Thats not to say it aint the best, it very may well be. The comment wasnt meant to be derogatory.

IMHO, there is a big difference in rough cutting out handles, blades, versus having a CNC center profile handles, drill holes, and radius and contour.

Maybe Im wrong....


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Anthony P. Lombardo
-will destroy knives for
food-

 
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