Forged knives are better than stock removal knives

Paracelsus

Paracelsus

Joined
Nov 6, 1999
Messages
2,639
Hold on there guys! I know this is a little too provocative a title but I really am curious about this.

I like and collect hand made forged fixed blade knives. I think there is something romantic about the forge and the blades that come from it. But I'll have to also admit that incredible work is done by stock removal. Are there real functional advantages to forging beyond the beauty of damascus and mosaic steel? Everything I read seems to imply that the ABS mastersmiths and those in training are seriously striving to create optimal knife making materials. Do stock removal makers also concentrate on differential tempering techniques? Does forging make a real difference in the cutting ability of the blade or is it mostly for aesthetic purposes? Is forging a more efficient way to make a blade? Is a stock removal blade made from someone else's damascus different than a sole authorship blade? What do you think?

I really am interested in serious responses to these questions. I hope I am not starting a war. I am neither hunter of man or beast, only a seeker of truth, beauty, and understanding.

Paracelsus
 
When I first started making knives, it was by forging. I didn't know that you could buy material that was flat and all you had to do was grind it out. I was limited to carbon steels because I didn't have a heat treat oven for the SS. In 93 I found out about O1 tool steel and thought I was in hog heaven. In the spring of 97 I joined the Arkansas Knifemakers Association and learned about "Hammer-Ins". In April I went to a Hammer-in and Joined the ABS. The schools, seminars, shop tours, and Hammer-ins have considerably increased my knowldge base about making knives. To me and this is only MHO, any knife can cut and most will hold an edge (or it goes in a drawer for the cousin's gift). The thing that makes "the knife" is the memories. Memories attached to it's purchase, or the materials it is made of (Grandpa's hay rake, truck, tractor, monster deer antler, buffalo horn, or any thing that is personal). Making damascus with a nail from the house you were born in would only have special meaning for you. Forging is about the only way a lot of these things will be able to be done. A person that forges will have to do some stock removal of the blade even after it is forged (though not as much). If you can forge, you have all the steels that are available to the people that do strickly stock removal and plus all the things to forge. There are some other materials out now for making knives besides Stainless Steels and High Carbon Steels. I am not too familiar with them but that really doesn't mean a lot because there is a lot that I don't know yet. I make knives from D2, ATS34, 52100, 1084, 1070, and 5160. The reason for the different carbons is in making damascus and because I happen to have a lot of it. The ATS34 and D2 is for customer requests and corrosion resistance. I didn't mean to ramble to much. I think that most all the steels when properly heat treated for the particular application of use, will cut good. A particular steel heat teated for a specific job will do better. IMHO. Have a good day. Ray Kirk
 
When I first started making knives, it was by forging. I didn't know that you could buy material that was flat and all you had to do was grind it out. I was limited to carbon steels because I didn't have a heat treat oven for the SS. In 93 I found out about O1 tool steel and thought I was in hog heaven. In the spring of 97 I joined the Arkansas Knifemakers Association and learned about "Hammer-Ins". In April I went to a Hammer-in and Joined the ABS. The schools, seminars, shop tours, and Hammer-ins have considerably increased my knowldge base about making knives. To me and this is only MHO, any knife can cut and most will hold an edge (or it goes in a drawer for the cousin's gift). The thing that makes "the knife" is the memories. Memories attached to it's purchase, or the materials it is made of (Grandpa's hay rake, truck, tractor, monster deer antler, buffalo horn, or any thing that is personal). Making damascus with a nail from the house you were born in would only have special meaning for you. Forging is about the only way a lot of these things will be able to be done. A person that forges will have to do some stock removal of the blade even after it is forged (though not as much). If you can forge, you have all the steels that are available to the people that do strickly stock removal and plus all the things to forge. There are some other materials out now for making knives besides Stainless Steels and High Carbon Steels. I am not too familiar with them but that really doesn't mean a lot because there is a lot that I don't know yet. I make knives from D2, ATS34, 52100, 1084, 1070, and 5160. The reason for the different carbons is in making damascus and because I happen to have a lot of it. The ATS34 and D2 is for customer requests and corrosion resistance. I didn't mean to ramble to much. I think that most all the steels when properly heat treated for the particular application of use, will cut good. A particular steel heat teated for a specific job will do better. IMHO. Have a good day. Ray Kirk
 
I'll make the first remarks. Being one who forges, I am biased, but I, as most started my journey in stock removal. First of all...there are good and bad in both realms. A well made, properly heat treated stock removal blade will certainly out cut a poorly made, improperly heat treated forged blade. I leaned towards forging because I also felt, and saw the "spirit" of forged blades. After forging a few blades, and learning a great deal about fire and steel, I realized that I had TOTAL control over the material. I think this is one of the things that drives those of us who forge. We have ability (tools and curiousity) to experiment to the end of achieving a better blade. I do know that through these experiments, many of us have made great leaps in performance simply because we step out of the "status quo", and believe there is something better than a heat treat manual can provide.
There are many stock removal makers out there that do their own heat treating, but by virtue of the type steel they prefer, differential hardening is not an option. Those steels are a different animal than forgers use, and must be treated accordingly. Now that I have done my best not to offend anyone, honestly. I have no doubt in my mind that if two blades were made from forgable steel (one forged and one stock removal), the forge blade would come out on top. I must qualify this by saying that not everyone has the same standards for the word "performance". There are stock removal blades that may out cut one of my 5160 or 52100 forged blades, but none of those blades will have the combined characteristics of a forged blade. (the cutting ability, the durability (flexibility), and the toughness (ability of the edge NOT to chip of roll under heavy use)
As for your other questions.....
Forging is more efficient simple because your blade is not based on the size of material on hand. I routinely make 4" bladed hunters
(9 1/2" OA) that begin as only 5" pieces of 1/4X1" stock.
There will be a difference in one of my damascus blades, and one that another has made from my bar stock. This will be due to the fact that I have learned how to heat treat this material, as well at forge it, for optimum results. Often the only information asked when someone purchases a billet of damascus is "what materials does it contain?" I suspect that most of these folks send out there blades for heat treating.
For others who read this post, be ensured that I mean no offense to anyone, I simply believe that the best blades are forged, otherwise I would not be doing so myself.
http://www.mtn-webtech.com/~caffrey

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Ed Caffrey
"The Montana Bladesmith"


 
I do both forged knives and stock removal knives. They both perform well. The secrets
in the heat treat. :']
 
True words Darrel. Picking the steel and process for each individual knife is the mark of a craftsman.

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old pete
 
I started making knives using the stock-removal method approx. 15 yrs. ago. I used mostly 440-C, A-2, D-2 & O-1. I might add that I no longer make knives. I seen a ad in Muzzleloading Blast magazine for a forged knife for only $60 and I purchased one. It was forged out of W-2 and I could not believe how tough the blade was, how long it would hold an edge and to beat it all, it was very easy to sharpen! I had made several stainless blade knives for some customers and they returned them to me for sharpening as they could not sharpen them!! I have purchased many carbon and Damascus blades and all have been a snap to sharpen. I have however purchased one forged blade that would not sharpen easily nor would it hold an edge...the guy who made it had just started and I'm sure that it was not properly forged. As a knife user now I think that a properly forged blade is superior to any stock-removal blade. Just my opinion. Of course forged carbon will rust but that is easily prevented with Tuff-cloth or other rust preventative.
 
When I made mostly sheath knives I forged alot I had an exelent teacher in the forging area and I still enjoy it a couple times a year but now I make mostly folding knives out of stainless not much point to forging unless your making your on damascus .I gave that up after the second day it was said earlier the key is in the heattreat
 
I'll Have to go along with Tank, Darrel, and pete. The total outcome of the product is best achieved in it's making - in this case it's the heat treat. About the only forging that I do is in the making of my mokume for patterning. I've been doing stock removal and selling of my blades for over six years and making blades for a longer period than that. But, the overall outcome of the blade is truely in the heat treat. Ihave always done my own heat treating first just using color, then about four years ago I got my oven, now even with it I do extras shch as Sub-Zero quench and mutiple temperings. I feel that I can only afford to give the customers the best blade that I can make.

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Curtis Wilson -
Wilson's Custom Knives, Engraving, and Scrimshaw
 
There is a great article about this subject in Knives '95. The article is titledTelling the truth about forging. It was written by William W. Wood. If you get a chance, it is a great read.

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Lynn Griffith
Available knives now listed on
My website
GriffithKN@aol.com

 
Pardon me for making this statement if it's stupid, but isn't all steel forged??? How is it manufactured into the sizes we buy?? Take care! Michael

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"Always think of your fellow knife makers as partners in the search for the perfect blade, not as people trying to compete with you and your work!"
 
They have cold rolled steel and hot rolled steel.
I don't think those processes qualify as forging.

During my study of BG-42, I read the manufacturer's instructions for forging, and it seemed too difficult a process for the return.

During my conversations with Gene Osborn about heat treatment, he used a phrase refering to steel during the heat treatment process as "quasi-plastic."
I had a picture in my mind of an almost fluid state in which the basic elements moved around a little and entered into new relationships.
Micheal Petro, metallurgist with Timken-LaTrobe, mentioned similar states, and said the cleanliness and distribution of the elements prior to heat treatment had the most significance right up to the moment of heat treatment, when a lot of internal reorganizing takes place.

I don't feel very comfortable speaking for these men, and I hope I haven't misrepresented their ideas, but I came away with the impression that the heat treatment means everything, and the shaping process means much less, except that, in the case of forging with its multiple reheats in the atmosphere, it can alter the chemical composition of the steel.

I think a smith can start out with a very high carbon content and live with the loss, or he can forge his own steel from scratch and in the process reintroduce carbon.

Otherwise, I think the merit of forging comes from the intent of the artist; his concentration and the mark of his hand upon the steel.
Whether forging improves the utility of the steel or not, it increases its artistic and spiritual value.

I for one, enjoy the irregularities of proportion that signify a hand made knife, whether forged or ground from stock.

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Luke 22:36, John 18:6-11, Freedom

 
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