Forging vs. Stock Removal

D

Don G

Joined
Jul 22, 1999
Messages
272
Would someone please explain what are the advantages and disadvantages of each? Thanks.
 
OK Don, you've got the can of worms, so I'll take the lid off. If I get too one-sided, keep in mind that I am a devoted "forger"
Here goes. Stock removal advantages:
-Less equipment needed
-less time invested (on average) per knife
-routinly stock removal makers offer blade materials that forgers do not, and vise versa.
Disadvantages:
-blade size and shape limited to available stock sizes of materials
-Limited control of heat treatment(for those who send their blades "out" for heat treatment.)
-more waste material created by virtue of the process (blade material)
-And the final one I will qualify, and this is a very personal opinion, MATERIAL FOR MATERIAL, GRIND FOR GRIND, a forged blade will GENERALLY out preform a stock removal blade of the same material, with the same grind, (example: 5160 or 52100) This is a fairly rare occurance as each method is suited to certain blade steels that the other is not.
FORGING DISADVANTAGES:
-Long, hot, and dirty
-Generally more time consuming to create a finished product
-more equipment required
-Not possible in all areas of the country
-added expenses of operating forging equipment
FORGING ADVANTAGES:
-Size/shape of blade not restricted by stock size(s)
-Damascus steel (pattern welded) production
-total control over the production, heat treatment, etc. (sole authorship)(again compared to those who out source heat treatment)
-Better able to taylor the "overall package"(I talk about the "overall package on my "bits of steel" web page) to the intended use.
There are many other things that I consider advantages, but I suspect that there might be a lynching mob forming already. Just remember, these are only the OPINIONS of guy from Montana. No offense is intended to the stock removal folks.(I was one myself once)
http://www.mtn-webtech.com/~caffrey

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Ed Caffrey
"The Montana Bladesmith"


 
The biggest advantage in forging is the fact that you have much more creative flexibility in the final shape of the blade. It seems you can also get a nicer distil taper to the blade.

I dont think there is any performance advantage in forging. Folks will argue this, but in my own little experemints, no difference at all in performance.

You can still have sole authorship in stock removal, heat treating has nothing to do with if the steel has been forged or not, i.e. 1095 is the same heat treat no matter how you shaped it)

It comes down to this- If you enjoy the art of forging than its for you, if not, dont wast the time.

 
This is where I have to throw up a flag. There is a world of difference in a 1095 stock removal blade that has been out sourced to a professional heat treater vs. one that a bladesmtih has treated. There may be the exception, but for the most part professional heat treaters use the specs. provided from the steel producer. Take a close look at these specifications and you will find that they are designated for use by "per inch of cross section thickness". This is intended to be a general guideline for the given material, and often time does a poor job of properly heat treating something as thin as a knife blade. There is also the fact that a fully hardened blade of 1095 will not be nearly as tough/durable as one that has been differntially heat treated. Regardless of what type of steel, or what method of production is involved, the heat treatment is the heart and soul of a blade. To relate an experience of my own, about three years ago, and article appeared in one of the national knife publicatons with several varieties of blade steel being tested for edge retention, toughness and durability. This report stated that all had been ground as nearly identical as possible, and "professionally" heat treated. The results were far off the experiments I had conducted. Disturbed by this, I purchased the types of steel listed, and from each, stock removaled one blade, and forged another. All of the stock removal blades were sent out to be heat treated, and I heat treated the forged blades, as well as two stock removal blades as a control group. After conducting the ABS tests on the entire lot of blades (12 all together) the forged blades out preformed the stock removal blades in cutting 1/2" hemp rope. Only one of the stock removal blades survived chopping two 2X4s without badly chipping, and only two of the blades passed the entire testing without failure, both of these were blades that had been forged and differntially heat treated.
Just my personal experience, but I truely believe there is a difference.
http://www.mtn-webtech.com/~caffrey

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Ed Caffrey
"The Montana Bladesmith"


 
Don
Just getting back from a pattern welded steel class. I found out that it IS A LOT OF WORK to forge a blade in pattern welded. BUT, you can do all kinds of things with the pattern with training and experimentation. Oh, and a little luck and lots of planning. I found it more enjoyable the stock removal. But that is just me, your milage may vary etc.
It really boils down to what was said before, do it how you like to do it.

Dwight
 
Ed, I definitely respect your opinion, and I am sure you can teach me alot about knife making and especially forging.

I never mentioned sending the blades out to a commercial heat treater. What i am trying to get across is this-

I found no difference in performance wether i forge a blade to shape (or as close as i can get) or Grind it from stock.

Everyone realizes that nailing the heat treat is the key. I wasnt saying in my earlier post that the stock romoved blades were sent to a commercial treater. It is a fact that if someone doesnt heat treat a blade right, it will be a P.O.S., but this has nothing to do with how it is brought to shape (whether forged or stock removed).

Remember, I am a new maker and definitely open to opinion. This is my opinion based on from very simple testing.

Sure wish Tim Zowada would chime in on this one!!

 
RM,
Now I understand where you are coming from. I agree that the shaping method, in and of itself, makes no difference. There are so many other things that occur during stock removal/forging operations that must be controlled to achieve a desired out come, and often times I believe that people revert to the old "it's good enough" thing, and that just drives me nuts. I look at it as a chain of events, each effecting the other, that makes either just a knife, or a superior cutting instrument. I intended no offense to anyone. Just reading the post for face value gave me the wrong impression. After posting that reply, I read the big hoopla about BF and the other outfit, and realized how cranked up folks can get over little things, and thought about how we are all here for the same reason(s). To discuss the craft we love. Take Care.
http://www.mtn-webtech.com/~caffrey


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Ed Caffrey
"The Montana Bladesmith"


 
I made stock removal blades approx. 15 years ago and my blades would certaintly cut with the best of the factory blades, usually better! Not bragging! I used different stainless steels and a few tool steel, such as O-1 & D-2. When I say cut with them I mean just that and also holding an edge longer than the factory knives. I contributed that to superior heat-treating by Paul Bos & others.
About ten years ago I was looking thru a Muzzleloading Blast magazine and seen an ad for a forged blade of W-2 for only $60...so I purchased it and could not believe how much better it held an edge and was so much easier to sharpen!! After that I purchased more forged blades from other bladesmiths and to this day have never been disappointed. I will add that not all forged knifemakers are equal and IMHO the heat-treat is most important. Just my 2 cents worth!
 
I have quickly scanned through all the postings on the vices and versas of hammering and grinding. I've been making knives full time since '97 and have during the past three weeks discovered the joys of forging. To me it makes no difference as to to the technical/metalurgical side of things. The feeling of pushing that hot steel in the direction I want it to go beats grinding to profile hands down! I do the differential quench and temper because it gives a better blade. My main reason for getting into forging is the desire to make traditional African weapons such as the short handled stabbing spear of the Zulu and the long spears of the Masai using damascus.

I now wish I started forging sooner. I actually find it a lot cheaper than grinding once all the tools are on hand.
 
Don G, I get this question asked at nearly every show/demonstration I do. Here's my simple answer; if you take a 4x4 stud and cut it down to 2x2, you cut through the grain structure, thereby reducing the strength of the finished product. On the other hand if you were to use a 2" dia. pole you have more strength due to the structure.
Now, it's all a mute point as long as the user remembers knives are made to CUT and not tobeused for pry bars and screwdrivers.
Usually,this explanation doesn't get me in toooooo much trouble. Bearclaw
 
Tiaan
Last year I watched a gal from South Africa forge an asaigi head. I really enjoyed it and have tried a couple since then.
Forging certainly does allow you to do more of a wide range of pieces.
 
This has definitely been a biased thread. I would just like to say that the heat treat is the most important aspect, in regard to performance. I would put my properly heat treated ATS-34 blades against any forged blade that was ground exactly the same, for cutting operations. It may not bend over sideways in a vise without breaking, but have you seen a forged blade after it has been bent. It is still bent. Lets not forget that forged blades rust. I know knifemakers, that forge, that will tell you that there knives will rust if you look at them funny. I have forged blades in the past. I do stock removal now. The stain and rust resistant thing is very important to me, as it is to my customers.

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Lynn Griffith-Tactical Knifemaker
PKA Member
www.angelfire.com/on2/griffithknives
 
Lynn is right, this has been a biased thread, but a good one. It has show the various ways that each disipline looks at knife performace, and which of the performance characteristics is valued by each individual and thier customers. As an example (not picking on you Lynn), Lynn values rust resistance and edge retention. Nothing wrong with that at all. I, on the other hand am willing to give up the rust resistance in order to gain something that I feel is important. This being a bit more durability. Not that Lynn's knives are not durable, just my view of the term is simply different. I have several knifemaker friends who want a blade that will break before it bends, and thats OK, because thats what they deem important. My view on this portion is that I want a blade that will bend if pressed to that point, and still be able to pound it back to halfway straight with a rock, or whatever, if needs be. So what we have done with this thread is validate all of the different reasoning, and different points of view, based on ideology and customer demands. After all these years, I still think that is one of the coolest things about this business, we are so diversified! Thanks everyone for a great thread.
http://www.mtn-webtech.com/~caffrey

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Ed Caffrey
"The Montana Bladesmith"


 
Biased or not, forging is more fun, or as the gal from SA (Heather Shoebotham) said: "Forging is COOL", what it comes down to in the end. The bottom line.
I make knives because I enjoy it, and if there is a better way of doing something (by better I mean challenging, new, out of the ordinary, cool) I'll try it. If I like it it becomes part of my repertoire.
The best knife, or way of making knives is the ones you enjoy making and that sells.

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