Frame-Locks (ala Sebenza)

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UnknownVT

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Feb 15, 2003
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[originally posted on rec.knives 6/11/2001
photos and comments added]

Frame-Locks (ala Sebenza)

I have always been impressed with the elegant simplicity and toughness of the frame-lock as first popularized by the Chris Reeve Sebenza. I have both small and large Sebenzas and can attest to their quality, functionality and intrinsic strength.

Chris Reeve Sebenza Frame-Locks
Sebenzas.jpg


There have been some attempts to manufacture frame-locks including an aborted attempt/collaboration between Chris Reeve and CRK&T to produce a factory frame-locker using hi-tech plastics instead of the titanium frame/handles.

The most well known and successful factory frame-locks have also used top materials - such as titanium handles/frames and high grade steels - like the Benchmade Pinnacle Model 750 and the CRK&T S-2.

Both in the early days suffered from stiff to "sticky" locks (this was so even with the early Sebenzas) it wasn't just the thicker, stronger heavy duty lock-bar but I think the "stick-tion" between the titanium and steel surfaces.

There was a tendency and real danger for novices when attempting to close the blade of exerting more pressure on the back of the blade because the lock would not release and when the lock finally releases - er-hum the thumb was still there pushing on the lock-bar - ouch!

More recent examples of both the Benchmade and CRK&T seem to have overcome this problem - (the real Chris Reeve Sebenzas had this solved some years ago).

I note that recently more frames locks have been introduced at much lower price points -

I have handled several and own a new Kershaw Vapor frame lock (Model 1640) and I am really impressed with it. A Ken Onion design 3" blade in AUS6A stainless steel at 55-57 Rc, and hardened 410 stainless steel handles and frame lock, at just a shade under 4" closed - the handle is skeletonized with lightening holes - on my (smaller) model they are attrractively arranged in a kind of wave pattern decreasing in size going from the butt to the tang. The finish is a smooth matte and the corners and edges are all nicely rounded so the handle is really comfortable, even the pivot-end pocket clip has lightening holes decreasing in size.

Kershaw/Ken Onion Vapor
shown against the Kershaw catalog page
Vapor_s.jpg


The action is very smooth for a frame-lock with none of the stick-tion on the lock. I really like this knife that's why I acquired one. There is a larger model Vapor II Model 1650 with a 3 1/2" blade and correspondingly larger frame/handle - I can't recall if the skeletonized lightening holes were the same as on the model I have, but the action and general feel was good. The MSRP was what really surprized me at $34.95 and $39.95 respectively and the street prices are likely to be lower.

I also noticed a couple of other frame locks in similar style - both are Darrel Ralph designs -

Camillus CUDA- EDC (Every Day Carry) -
2.95" 420HC stainless steel flat ground blade with slight recurve edge (there is also a 154CM version), CUDA skeletonized handles/frame in slik matte finish, and pocket clip - I handled a number of these with the 154CM blade at the WoW Inc stand and these were also pretty smooth and nice - MSRP $69.95 for the 420HC version (Model CU220 plain and CU221 partially serrated) I'm sure the street prices are lower - since I have seen the 154CM model sell for as low as $59.95.

Edge Tech (Outdoor Edge) Paragee -
3" AUS-8A stainless steel blade, skeletonized stainless steel handles/frame (one can see the family resmblence of this and the4 CUDA - EDC) I don't know the price but it would not surprise me if it is in the same ballpark as the EDC.

Also interesting is the Ron Lake-Michael Walker collaboration with Schrade - the SLW2 - this is a 2 7/8" 440A stainless steel blade with a "frame type lock" (and unique Lake-Walker safety) which they call a "Tough Lock" but handles/frame made out of hi-tech plastic - Zylite - a combination of Zytle and Kevlar.

So we've managed to come full circle - there is finally a manufacturer who is able to make a frame-lock using plastic handles........

What other frame locks (ala Sebenzas) are there??

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Since I wrote this post in 2001 there have been a number of other Frame-Lock knives - the most notable for me is the Speed-Safe assisted opening combined with frame-lock from the Kerhsaw/Ken Onion collaboration - the first was the tiny Chive
- and I lusted for a Vapor sized Speed-Safe Frame-Lock -
that took its time coming - finally in the shape of the Kershaw/Ken Onion LEEK (LONG Leek review here)

Some Frame-Locks
FrameLocks_s.jpg


The Kershaw/Ken Onion Frame-Locks
Kershaws.jpg


Chris Reeve spec's his Sebenzas with a 75% coverage of the blade heel for his frame-locks.

The tiny Black Chive is just about there...

The Kershaw Vapor I have is just a shade over 50% which I personally like. Best of all the street price for the Vapor is under $20 from Wal*Mart - this has got to be a bargain. Mine was an early one made in Japan - they are currently made in China with Japanese steel - it should not make a material difference - but one can always make sure by inspecting and handling before purchase.

The Leek, however, covers only just over 1/3 - although I'd much prefer a just over 50% coverage - I have to confess I have not had any problems in reliability over the past 3 weeks of ownership and daily regular use (it is my at home EDC) - including cutting awkward things like Cheddar cheese and large sweet potatoes - if anything the frame-lock seems to engage just perceptibly more after the cutting - so this has increased my confidence factor somewhat -
but being typically opinionated and biassed doesn't prevent me from preferring a just over 50% coverage :D :D :D

Of course YMMV :)

At about $40 street price for the Leek it is obviously another bargain - these are currently made in the USA too........

PS - was the Schrade Lake-Walker collaboration Frame-Lock ever produced?

--
Vincent

http://UnknownVincent.cjb.net/
http://UnknownVT.cjb.net/
 
Pretty nice review.

A couple of comments.

Somebody will want you to add a Strider to the review. and a Mayo, and the Buck/Mayo

There was a Gerber Ti airframe, that never really got off the ground either. It would be interesting to add that to the meix.

Also, IMO, the TI Salsa, with the compression lock, is superior in some ways. One being your fingers aren't in the way when you unlock. Another advantage is on a liner lock the compression is transmitted down the length of the lock side through the milled out parts. The milled out parts are there for the lock to bend over.

On the Ti compression lock the cuts are there for the bend, but the forces are not transmitted down the lock but across it's width. A much sorter span maybe .25 inches which I think would make it much stiffer.
 
I have a CUDA MAXX 5.5 and it is the only frame lock that I have, so I may be judging based upon too small a universe, but I cannot see any real difference between the frame lock and the liner lock when it comes to the white-knuckled grip and torque problem that seems to distress a number of people about liner locks. This assumes a quality lock in both knives, say a CUDA EDC or a Sebenza and a Spyderco Military or StarMate with the eccentric pivot properly adjusted. Am I missing something here? Of course, I have had bad liner locks bought before I got onto BF.com and learned the difference collapse on me, but that was not the design's fault but the fault of the maker.
 
There are also several custom makers out there that have "conquered" the framelock. Two that come to mind are Mike Obenauf and J.W. Smith. I've had framelocks from both makers and now only have one and it is from J.W. Both makers have done their homework and both produce a top notch framelock. The xl RF-1 I currently have is my favorite framelock. The locking bar covers about 40% of the blade and is as solid as it can be. The blade thickness is .160 so the coverage amounts to .070 or there abouts! This knife has the stiffest lock I have ever had on a framelock. John makes his springs short with more angle and this means that once engaged you are not going to accidently disengage that lock. It is the same on his liner locks and it is a feature I really appreciate. Even though this RF-1 is set up for tip down carry and the clip sets just above the length of the lock a firm hand grip puts your index and middle finger in contact with the locking bar and in a severe twist would only serve to reinforce the lock and actually push it further in if possible. Another feature that I think helps is the 90 degree cut on the face of the blade tang. When the lock bar snaps over it is supported on the bottom side by a 1/8" of the blade tang and this prevents the lock from being pushed down and perhaps disengaging. Once the locking bar comes over it is in place until you make the decision to unlock it.

Just thought i would put in a good word for some custom makers!!:D :cool: :)
 
I just bought a Benchmade 750 frame lock...I like the framelock concept very much. The tighter you hold the knife the stronger the lock becomes. Who woulda thunk;)
 
Well, as you can see from the 2 pictures(one is a pic, one is a link), the SnG has a very thick and strong lock, however, I do think the Sebenza still puts out the best framelock available, but of course they have had some time to perfect it...

SnG%20Lock2.jpg
 
Very nice review indeed.The sebenza lock is awesome.Here is a pic. of the lock-up on my Rick Hinderer Firetac.It incorporates Rick's new lock stabilizer and is maybe the best frame lock I have handled thus far.Pretty good knife too.:D
 

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Don't forget the Cutter Knife and Tool Brend folder. I have one in my pocket now and it's every bit as good as a Sebenza lock wise (I have a several of them as well).

Reese Weiland makes a kick butt custom frame lock it's almost the only style he makes anymore with the exception of a few linerlocks.
 
Thank you all so much for adding to the thread with the additional frame-locks and alternatives - especially the photos - really appreciate it.

It would appear that the frame-lock is now in the mainstream and most people have conquered the technology of being able to make/produce frame-locks without the early stick-tion problems.

It was kind of self-evident, I guess, when Kershaw could produce a good quality reliable frame-lock in the Ken Onion designed Vapor at an almost unbelievable under $20 at Wal-Mart......

and now we also have Speed-Safe assisted opening frame-locks too in the tiny cute Chive and the "right-sized" (for me) LEEK.

Thanks,
:cool:and Please keep them coming. :cool:
 
have had 4 frame locks, 2 currently in possession.
Lg and small sebenza - already discussed ( lg is gone , so is small come to think of it stolen by my wife
:eek:
A Charles Marlowe framelock. This beast had a 5/32" blade. was a beautiful knife sold in a I wish I didn't sell it sale. Excellent heavy duty knife.

But the smoothest,slickest most come alive ihave handled is the Scott Cook Lochsa. The lock covers close to 75% of the blade, and it opens and closes so smooth.
Anyway I'm wearing it in a custom sheath and hope to give it a good review later this summer. Anyone else using one?:confused:
 
You guys forgot to mention the Smith and Wesson FL-1 and FL-2. If you are looking for a larger framelock, these knives offer a lot of bang-for-the-buck! Ya, it's a S&W/Taylor Cutlery product, but it's still a nice knife. Nice recurve , and 440C steel at a low price point. Amazingly stiff detent makes it difficult to open, though.

Bruise
 
Bruise Lee, don't push the thumbstud on the FL-2 away from the handle, push it towards the front, the open position of the blade, and it will snap out easily. The problem isn't the detent, it's the width of the blade, almost exactly like the Emerson Commander. It's hard to open it pushing out unless you have a long strong thumb. :)
 
The one thing about pics is that you can't see how solid a framelock is just by how impressive it looks in the pic. I've handled a lot of framelocks that exhibit problems once I hold them firmly. One common problem is that as soon as you hold the lock firmly, it moves way to the lock side and is very difficult to unlock -- this causes premature wear as well. Another problem is that the lock bar move upwards too much, and that seems to compromise the lockup a bit.

I definitely subscribe to the idea that the framelock's stellar reputation was developed on the back of the Sebenza, and there are many custom and production makers who are putting out framelocks that are not nearly as structurally sound, but yet are getting the positive press from Reeves' pioneering work in perfecting this lock. There are, of course, also production and custom makers doing fantastic work with framelocks.
[note: cpirtle made a similar note, I thought it was above me, but it was in another thread. I'm basically agreeing with him]

Joe
 
Joe hit the nail square on the head. When you pick up a framelock and grip it firmly the lock bar should not move over to the left. If it does then it is only a matter of time, and short time at that, and the lockup will increasingly be to the left hand side of the blade tang. I've seen cheap framelocks do this and rather expensive framelocks do this, don't ever remember a Sebenza doing this. Joe is right when he says that Chris Reeve has pioneered the framelock and a lot of the mechanics of it have been used by others. Those others still have to get it right though. I'm happy to say the J.W. has it right as I can take this framelock when open and push with moderate strength against the lock trying to push it in towards the opposite handle and across the tang and it is a NO GO! I have a Cutter/Brend framelock coming Wednesday and I hope to have the same results with it!
 
Originally posted by artsig1
Joe hit the nail square on the head. When you pick up a framelock and grip it firmly the lock bar should not move over to the left. If it does then it is only a matter of time, and short time at that, and the lockup will increasingly be to the left hand side of the blade tang. I've seen cheap framelocks do this and rather expensive framelocks do this, don't ever remember a Sebenza doing this.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately BOTH my large and small Sebenzas will do this -
I can easily press on the lock-bar and make them move well over -
in the case of the large Sebenza to touch the other handle scale.

When this way - they do become harder to UNlock - but not terribly so.

The only Frame-Lock that I have which cannot be pushed to engage further is - of all things - the cheapest available on the market - the sub $20 Kershaw/Ken Onion Vapor -

All the Kershaw frame-locks I have - Black Chive, Vapor and LEEK have pivot-end pocket clips that basically get in the way of one's grip's ability to squeeze the lock further....

:confused: ....so does this make the $20 Vapor a "better" Frame-Lock than a Sebenza? :confused:

I was going to post a photo - but have found that Sony ImageStation (where I post my photos) is currently (temporarily) down
(so we cannot see pics in my original post for the time being -
This note: Tues. March/11/2003 11:42AM EDT).
 
Knock me over with a feather!!! I remember trying this with my Sebbies as I was worried that the bar would move all the way over. Even though I could get the bar to move some it never moved all the way over. I guess though it might have to do with the way I put them back together after having them apart. Most Sebbies will lock with at least 50 to 75% coverage of the blade tang. I never did like this as it always made me think that the knife was worn out. I found out that you can change this lockup point when you reassemble the knife. When I put my Sebbies together I would always just start the three screws, then close the blade and tighten down the two handle screws first, followed by the pivot screw. This would ALWAYS result in the lockup being around 30% to 40%, and a lock bar that DID NOT move over under extra firm thumb pressure being applied to it!
The JWS RF-1 I have has the same lock up spot no matter how I reassemble it and I think it would take a hammer to make the locking bar move over any more to the right!

As far as the Vapor.......I honestly don't know what to tell you. I used to work at Wal Mart in the Sporting Goods dept and when we first started selling these I tried a couple and found they would move over but that was those and not yours.
I know the first ones were constructed in Japan while the bulk of those sold through Wally World are the Chinese manufactured ones. Whether that has a bearing on it I don't know.

I can definately say that the Sebenza IS the better framelock! You might want to give my reassembling instructions a try......if they do not work then just reverse the order and tighten the pivot first followed by the handle screws.:D
 
Originally posted by artsig1
Knock me over with a feather!!! <snip>
I can definately say that the Sebenza IS the better framelock!
Click to expand...

in my mind either, Art :)

that was a only semi-serious (rhetorical) question about a sub-$20 Vapor being "better" than a Sebenza.

however it does kinda show what a great value the Vapor is.....

Mine was an early Vapor made in Japan -
but I'll go to my local Wally-world to do some QC one day........:D :D :D

As for the Sebenza lock moving - it doesn't bother me - I thought they're supposed to work that way -

But because of the lock-bar position and recess -
(1) although not impossible, there isn't a tendency to move the lock in handling.
(2) far more important - even if moved it is in the direction of more engagement - ie: "safer".

Thanks for the assembly instructions.
 
Good thread guys.., as many mentioned.., I do think the mainstream nature of the frame-lock these days, is no doubt based on the success of the Sebe, but the points made regarding.....-all frame-locks are not good frame-locks-...., is certainly true.


"Hunters seek what they [WANT].., Seekers hunt what they [NEED]"
 
I think with the framelock's feature that a firm hold will re-inforce the lockup, it's not unreasonable to expect the lock to move over a bit. But if it becomes very difficult to close one-handed every time I grip the knife hard enough to cut a little cardboard, the lock becomes positively a pain in the butt.
 
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