Frustrating

R

realitycheck

Joined
Nov 24, 2007
Messages
313
Man this sharpening thing can be so frustrating. I finally got my sharpmaker today after waiting since I put in the order on the 11th. So I watched the dvd, I read the instruction book for sharpening knives. So then I couldnt stand it anymore and went to work on my buck 116 fixed hunting knive. After using the sharpie trick a few times I finally got it to shaving sharp on about the first inch and half of the blade closest to the hilt. So I went to the white stones following one of the tricks on here I ran the edge of the across the white stone straigt down across the edge to remove any bur i had created. Then went to the white stones and now its not even close to shaving sharp. It will barely cut paper. I guess what I thought was shaving sharp was just a bur formed on the knife. :grumpy: What do you guys think im doing wrong?? I know you guys with experience enjoy this and I really like the thought of sharpening my own knife and keeping it that way, but man its tougher than it looks. Even with this system.
 
whoa, did you run the blade across the stone perpendicular to the surface? That is about the fastest way to dull a knife that I can think of. You do that when you have fatigued metal at the edge and you want to start all over.
 
Exactly. You just took off the edge, not the burr.

The way I remove a burr is first to determine if there is one. I strop the blade on both sides, generally just quickly on my pants leg, then I run my thumb off one side of the edge and then off the other. If there is a burr, it's going to feel like friction on the side opposite the one I stropped last.

If there is a burr, I strop the edge on my stone at a more obtuse angle than I used to sharpen it. This usually takes 3 or 4 strokes to clear it, one side, then the other.
 
I gotta ask why/how you even raised a burr on the S/M in the first place? Left-right, left-right, patience, left-right, left-right: No burrs.
 
yeah I ran it perpendicular. I thought for sure thats what I read on here the other night. Of course maybe I was just so tired the other night I confused myself. Well thats dumb. I just ruined all that work. I started on this blade the other day using my smiths benchstone, and got it to where it would cut paper pretty good. So I figured I would put it on the sharpmaker once it got here and get it hair shaving sharp at least. I noticed with the sharpie trick though that on one side I held my twenty degree angle on the other side I didnt. So I had to keep cutting it on the sharpmaker to get it closer to the right angle. So then I got it shaving sharp on part of it. Then I screwed it up. Man now I feel stupid.
 
Learn from experience. Working when you're tired is only good when you've been doing it so long, it's reflex. :)

I was touching up a Subcom earlier today on my Spyderco Double Stuff -- a coarse ceramic stone glued back to back with a fine. I got a good sharp edge but testing it on my finger nails I noticed the tip was perfect on my right nail but not as sharp on the left. ???

Looking at it under magnification, I saw the bevels at the tip weren't even, one was more obtuse. A few strokes later, it was OK again. How did that happen? I did fine the whole length of the blade, but by the time I got to the tip, I was daydreaming or something? Stay alert. :D
 
realitycheck said:
I thought for sure thats what I read on here the other night.
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I don't mean to scare ya, but ... I have noticed we have guys here who don't always know what they're talking about but can't shut up. Sometimes they'll signal this by ending with something like, 'I've never done this but I read it somewhere'. Be careful whose advice you take.
 
Yeah I've been on alot of forums, especially welding and car forums, those are my main hobbies. Not new to the knife scene been using them all my life. Just now getting back into carrying after a couple years. I know what you mean about those people and usually I can spot them but I havent been on here long enough to know what peoples usernames I can trust. Esav I went to radio shack and got there 60-100x microscope. Do you look at the edge or the side of the edge?? Its really hard for me to see the edge looking straight down on top of it.
 
look at the edge from the side. I have that same scope, works fairly well, I use white paper as a background to keep the view bright.

I think you probably just confused two things that get mentioned here. One is that you can remove the burr by raising the angle of your blade slightly and doing a few more strokes, the other is that you can remove a damaged edge by holding the blade perpendicular to the stone and doing a few strokes.
 
I use a small hand magnifier with about 2x :D The real trick is to get the light to glint off it, which means to tilt it back and forth a bit. Amazing how much you can see that way. Also, I tend to tilt it slowly back and forth because I deliberately convex these edges, and it can be hard to see a convex edge bevel staring straight at it.

I have this 60-100x magnifier, but I don't use it for this. Check these out for some lower powers that are easier to hold steady: www.widgetsupply.com/page/WS/CTGY/jeweler-tool
 
realitycheck: Yes, you did read that somewhere, and from a reliable source (such as Jeff Clark), but in a different context. If you have a really bad burr, that you can not get rid of by other means, then it is often best to run the edge straight into the hone with very light pressure. Such a burr usually appears only on very coarse hones, but hardly ever on a Sharpmaker. When you do have created such a stubborn burr (which does not appear on all steels either), then running the edge right into the hone is essentially a "desperation" move. When doing this, you should be fully aware of the fact that you remove the edge together with the burr. But sometimes it is easier to rebuild the edge, then to continue to fight the burr. Again, these are special circumstances, when all else fails. With the regular 20 strokes on the Sharpmaker this is NOT applicable. As long as the Sharpmaker makes contact with the edge which you have correctly checked with the black marker, just stick to the instructions of the DVD.
 
Just because it will shave does not mean that you have removed the burr.

There are roughly 3 grades of edge that will shave. A burred edge on a relatively sharp blade will shave, but in only one direction. Flip the blade over and the knife will just slide across the top of the hair. This is barber sharp. A barber shaves with only one hand with only one blade orientation (unless they're really talented).

If you remove the burr on barber sharp, you have a sharper blade and that edge will shave in either direction, but NOT AS WELL as barber sharp on the burred side.

Then there's super sharp - when there is no burr and you can literally split hair. Check out Vassili's "hair whittling" . I think Vassili is a better sharpener than I am, and probably produces a durable edge, but I caution you that most edges I see this sharp lose their edge imediately from deformation at the slightest pressure.

I finally googled sharpmaker and realized that I own one. I remember being reluctant to purhcase it because it was "just another crotchstick" and expensive. I guess the shopowner saw me coming - I love sharpening stuff. However, owning several crotchsticks, I found the "Sharpmaker" only slightly superior in stick design and materials. It's packed away somewhere in what most would consider new condition. There are better methods. One danger, especially on round sticks, is rounding the point at the end of the stroke.

However, any crotchstick can get a knife sharp - and it produces a fairly durable edge simply because one can't hold the knife perfectly straight every time and thus produce a convex bevel - that's actually good for utilitarian purposes. But the convex shape stretches across the whole bevel instead of at the very edge of the bevel (jig sharpening with a strop). A completely convex bevel IS NOT AS SHARP as a flat bevel.

Anyway, try this with your sharpmaker. 20 strokes right, 19 strokes left, 18 strokes right, 17 strokes left . . . and so on . . . 2 strokes right, 1 stroke left. Now move to the finer stone and repeat. Next, while still on the finer stone, alternate right to left for 20 strokes. This should do a fairly good job of abrading the burr. Take your time and try to keep as vertical a position as possible. The reason for the repetition on one side is two part. One, produce the bevel and burr (or chase it). Two, muscle memory. Trying to move back and forth between sticks without estabishing muscle memory, well, you're not going to be as precise. Please realize that my instructions are generic. You may produce the burr quicker than 20 strokes or it may take 100 (if it takes 100 you may want to look at a different method or a different blade - also, sharpen your blade more often). Main thing, at some point you need to drag your thumb (ring fingers are more sensitive, BTW) across the bevel to make sure you have established the burr. Estabilishing the burr is sharpening 101 and a must - regardless of what Spyderco says about the abilities of their product. If you don't have a burr down the length of your blade, you're pi$$ing in the wind.

Forget the microbevel with a crotchstick setup. Pick an angle. You get the convex bevel and edge durability from the mere nature of crotchstick sharpening - variability. You don't need to put a microbevel on the blade. Microbevels are for durability on flat bevels and speed of "resharpening". Follow Spyderco's directions if you want, but your edge will not be as sharp and how long does it really take to hone a sharper angle on a knife once that bevel angle is established.

BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, removing the burr is the job of a strop, whatever the "system" used to produce the bevel. Stopping removes the burr and puts a slight convex shape to the very edge of the bevel thus providing durability. If you use the Chromium Oxide (green) compound graded to 0.5 microns, you will be abrading the burr, not creating one. Or, just go with leather only. I don't know what the grit is on sharpmaker sticks, but they ain't close to 0.5 micron. The sticks are also hard. Hard will always want to produce a burr. The nature of leather (slight give) grabs the burr without producing another burr.

A burr that won't go away - you're starting with too coarse a grit for the hardness of the steel. Try starting at a finer grit. Finer grit, finer burr. Finer burr, easier to remove and still have a sharp blade.

Practice, practice, practice.

cinteal
 
cinteal said:
Forget the microbevel with a crotchstick setup. Pick an angle. You get the convex bevel and edge durability from the mere nature of crotchstick sharpening - variability. You don't need to put a microbevel on the blade. Microbevels are for durability on flat bevels and speed of "resharpening". Follow Spyderco's directions if you want, but your edge will not be as sharp and how long does it really take to hone a sharper angle on a knife once that bevel angle is established.
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I've always that a microbevel makes the edge stronger though. I know on my benchmade with 154cm it probably doesnt need it. It can probably handle the 30 degree conclusive angle and will probably be alot sharper to boot. Well I say that but I've also read on here that a microbevel creates a sharper edge also. Hmm, more confusing sides to a story. :confused: Now what??? hehe

Also is it really necessary to strop? I just got the ultra-fine stones for the sharpmaker, I just havent used them yet.
 
realitycheck, let me try to answer some of that.

A knife will tend excel as a slicer when it has a thin blade. Even if the entire blade is not thin, say the back is thick, the blade may be deeply hollow ground. Even if it isn't deeply hollow ground, it may have a broad, acute secondary bevel.

But that thin edge will also tend to deform, so a microbevel, a short, relatively obtuse, almost unnoticeable bevel at the very edge, will protect it from the chipping or rolling it might otherwise see.

So I do agree with what you've written. Remember that the shoulders of this microbevel are not significantly wider than the deeply hollow ground original edge, so it shouldn't interfere with its sharpness.

Now, as to why you might strop when you have, say, an ultra-fine ceramic. I recently sharpened some knives using a DMT diafold coarse/fine sharpener, finishing up with a Spyderco Double Stuff: two stones glued back to back, coarse and fine ceramic. My final step was to strop the edges on the fine ceramic. Strop, as in stroke the blade toward the back rather than toward the edge.

Should I have used a leather strop, perhaps charged with an appropriate compound? Yes, I think that would have gotten an even more polished edge. But that wasn't what I needed. What I did cleaned what little burr remained, and reduced some of the toothiness -- not necessarily a good thing, either.
 
Thanks esav, I think I have to find my happy medium for the things I'll be cutting. I sure like the thought of having a knife that will pushcut through a cars drive belts at work though. Instead of a more sawing action. But it may not work like I want it to. I may have to leave it more toothy. So the ultra fine may be all I need. Thanks I'll probably go with a micro bevel to keep away from chipping. Im not sure just yet.
 
realitycheck,

Durability's what microbevels are for. You're not going to hurt anything putting one on. From the sounds of your work description, might be a good thing durability wise.

Sharpness is relative. I just took a beating on another thread for saying that a flat bevel was sharper than a convex one. If you're cutting paper or shaving a hair to check how keen the edge is - doesn't matter. What I'm saying is that if you work with your edge, ie., sculpt wood, chisel dovetails, and probably cut through seatbelts, as flat a bevel as possible will "pass through" the material with less effort than a convex bevel. However, though the convex bevel may take a little more effort to pass through, it will do so more times without deforming. And, the difference in effort is negligible. We're splitting hairs, here (pun intended). The same thing can be said of the microbevel. I personally do not agree that a microbevel is sharper, though.

IMHO - I think the bevel you get from freehanding with a Sharpmaker or otherwise strenghtens the edge enough without a microbevel - but that's for my purposes. I cut boxes open and trim fingernails with my pocketknife. And I don't personally use a Sharpmaker, though I own one. Try it several ways. Can't go wrong learning.

On stropping, I do almost exactly what esav does when I'm in my shop. I keep a little fine graded glass/ceramic bulb in my pocket to touch up, remove a burr. Low angle planes on exotic hardwoods can actually make a burr or maybe a rolled edge on some of my softer steeled planes. I follow the procedure esav talked about to remove it. But also, like esav said, a strop would be better. A leather stop is always my finishing touch when I go through my tools for sharpening - everyday before I leave the shop. I'm an edge freak. However, the ceramic provides a little cutting action and is quick. Again. splitting hairs.
 
Well guys I finally got a chance to try again. I started last night and got to finish tonight. cinteal I took your advice.
cinteal said:
20 strokes right, 19 strokes left, 18 strokes right, 17 strokes left . . . and so on . . . 2 strokes right, 1 stroke left. Now move to the finer stone and repeat. Next, while still on the finer stone, alternate right to left for 20 strokes.l
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only thing I missed was the finer stone. I thought you said do the same thing as in the medium grit stone but start with 10 so anyway I did that. Right now im very happy, I now have a shaving sharp edge on both sides of the blade, and will push cut through paper. I've never made a knife this sharp on my own. Man it feels really good. I think I might have the bug, LOL. :D
 
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