Good folders vs concept of three knives

[OmegaA]

Hello, guys,

It is my another confusion: according to the concept of three knives you should have one slicer, one multitool and one heavy duty.

Where will you put such knives like Sebenza, RatTrap, Strider folders?

They are not that good slicers because the blade is thick, so they will not be as good in this job as a quality knife with thin blade (Wenger, for example). But, at the same time, forders are not extremely tough for some heavy jobs.

So, is there a practical need for such knives? It seems to me that if you follow the concept, you will have a cheaper set of knives which will do a job better than any of these nice expensive folders.

I see only one argument - because you do not want to carry a fixed blade. But it is a preference, isn't it?

What is your opinion?

 

[North61]

For light trips I would rather have one good multi use knife than lugging three specialists with me.

Anyway when I am on a fully loaded trip out in the boonies I take 1 light knife and an axe or hatchet as I have never bought into the knife as chopper idea.

I have the Granfors Bruks line and on short trips take the mini hatchet..it is a good light chopper and skinner. It will help make a small fire. The wildlife hatchet gets the nod for longer trips. In the canoe I take the forest axe and it's a beauty. The hunters axe gets the nod for hunting trips and is likely the best all-rounder.

With the axe or hatchet a heavy duty knife isn't needed. Where a knife needs some meat is when travelling light and taking only one tool. When I do some semi-civilized trips I take one pocket knife and an altoids tiny tim kit containing fire starting material and string. This is also on my person when canoeing as a whipe out can separate you from all but what you have on you.

I still frankly have trouble seeing the need for a sharpened pry-bar and would rather have an opinel than a battle rat though something in between might be preferable. The Grohmann camper is usually around my waist in the canoe. With a baton I can do just about anything that needs doing and for light work am not unduly handicapped.

 

[North61]

I see that as usual I missed the main question of the original post. A good heavy folder is a good thing for that one all around tool. No it isn't the best at any job but who wants to lug around three knives all day?

 

[Moine]

Well I think it's good to have a good safety margin as far as toughness is concerned. It's not dramatic to have a chip on an edge, but to break the whole blade in the field when you need it most is not good.

So my light cutter is a reprofiled (to a thin convex edge) Howling Rat. Plenty tough, and sharp as hell. Good enough for light cutting, and tough enough for prying if needed.

Heavy duty folders can be reprofiled to a thinner edge and cut well. And they will still be tougher than regular folders...

Just my opinion...

David

 

[Stickbait]

But the classic standby of 3 tools is still sound-myself, maybe more of light hatchet,smallFB/small folder and a multi-tool.Outside of the city (Toronto) northern Ontario can be quite daunting and aside from these tools,of course fire-starting,and shelter-making are essentials.Plus water storage/drinking/disinfecting.also I believe that load-bearing technology/packs are quite a bit more sophisticated then Nessmuck's day and it makes carrying more and better equipment alot :thumbup: easier.

 

[Happy Joe]

I believe that it is a matter of preferance ... I, personnaly, don't need tools (or multitools) when camping in the boonies. That said, my evey day carry knife is a victornox tinker (One of the most used tools that I have ever bought) but away from civilization it is mostly used to butter bread. I typically also carry a heavy folder or light sheath knife in the field and rarely use either. I haven't had a need for an ax or hatchet in more than 30 years of camping (although I did carry a 12" machette for a number of years (mostly used it to dig cat holes)). I have used a Svensaw to cut many cords of downed or standing deadwood for fires though. I have needed a prybar only when helping fix other peoples' battle scars when 4 wheeling, to get them mobile once again. So my experience says its a matter of what floats YOUR boat, there are a million opinions and all are correct. Pick the choice(s) that you feel fits best then experiment...
Enjoy!

 

[longbow50]

I've come to the conclusion that a good multi purpose folder is the way to go, so I carry a Victorinox Hunter lockblade w/saw. Most of the wood used for fires around here is readily picked up from the ground or there are plenty of small limbs on a deadfall that can be easily removed without an edged tool. If I will be spending a couple days away from civilization, I've got a Mora 2000 stashed with the other gear in my rucksack.

 

[Thomas Linton]

My routine backpacking or hiking kit includes a Juice (that includes the small blade), a Gerber pull-out saw, and a 4-5" stout fixed blade. So far, I have not had the need for more or other.

As for lock-blade knives as slicers, I have a couple of Spydercos (Military and Manix) that slice quite well, but they don't make it into the pack. They do get carried on car camps and in my shoulder bag that goes everywhere except backpacking and hiking.

 

[randjack]

I carry a Benchmade 921 a lot. It has a fairly straight, thin blade, and clices well. It is S30V, and it has never been even remotely dull. It's the one with the little 440C accessory blade in the back, and I use it for such things as stripping wire. It holds an edge well, but even better, it sharpens with a couple of strokes on a DMT credit card size fine grit plate.

If I am wearing a suit, it's a BM 960 in D2, carried IWB. I got a Spyker a while back, and while I love the blade design, I don't carry it much due to size.

I carry a new Wave much of the time, too. I keep its blade shaving sharp, which has not been hard. The new blades are a huge improvement. The elastic gussetts in the sides hold a County Comm folding straight razor and a fire steel; the thin little front pocket holds 20' of 80# SpiderWire wound around a piece of index card.

On some occassions, I carry a nice flat little Uncle Mike's compass case which holds a Benchmade Mini-Ambush, Inova X-1, and an original Leatherman.

When I am 'off road', its a Fallkniven F1 and a Gerber PacAx, though I have a nice Reeves Nessmuk coming some time in February.

In car my kit there is always a Victorinox for its accessory blades and for litte work. There is also a convex sharpened Cold Steel Pro Thrower if I ever needed really rough work or a long blade. I don't think it's ever been used. It truly is the proverbial sharpened pry bar. Maybe the sharpest pry bar you ever saw, but a pry bar, nonetheless.

Linton: you design a mean knife. One of yours is on my list.

 

[chomo]

After several decades of travelling in the NZ back country, I have found the best combination (for me) to be a small pocket knife/multi tool, a 4-5" fixed blade, and a folding saw. If it was necessary to leave one of these behind, I would leave the fixed blade. A multi tool will do all of the cutting tasks that I have needed to do so far, and what it can't cope with, the saw does.

Don't get me wrong, though! I have done a number of long wilderness trips carrying a big fixed blade too! There is something primordial and satisfying about chopping branches with a large knife.

It is all about what works best for you in the situation you are going to be in. It is impossible (even though it is tempting) to generalise. A good folder will always trump no knife. Three knives are always better than one (unless you have to carry them!).

cheers
Sean

 

[Thomas Linton]

...
Linton: you design a mean knife. One of yours is on my list.

Not me. I do not design knives.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Where will you put such knives like Sebenza, RatTrap, Strider folders?

These are three fairly different knives, the Strider folders are significantly thicker than the other two, both in stock and primary grind. Reeve spec's his folders at 0.020" and 0.023" at the edge but the small Sebena I bought was only about half this thickness, once I adjusted the edge angle it can outcut an Opinel on a lot of work.

They are not that good slicers because the blade is thick, so they will not be as good in this job as a quality knife with thin blade (Wenger, for example).

You don't cut with the spine of the knife, the edge configuration is more of a factor on cutting performance. For example the Rat Trap can easily match the cutting performance of an Opinel on 3/8" hemp and carving woods if a slight relief is added to the edge.

You will notice the advantage of the slightly thinner stock on the opinel on really heavy cardboard and thick vegetables, but for a lot of cutting, it isn't as much of a factor as the edge profile which is easily adjusted by the user except in extremes like the Fulcrum IID.

Now as for the advantage of thicker stock, it allows more vertical load to be applied to the knife, for example you can baton the knife into a piece of wood and leverage it sideways to split the wood. The extra weight also give them more chopping power, while a Manix can't readily cut a 2x4, it can limbs small soft woods (Pine) and easily clear light brush (Alders).

However what is more functional a purely optomized cutting folder (Spyderco Calypso Jr. in ZDP-189) and a heavy duty one (Fulcrum IID) vs an inbetween like the Spyderco Paramilitary or Rat Trap - the multiple knives always win in such comparisons. The more gear you are willing to carry the higher the performance. Multi-function tools can't compete one on one with specialized tools in their niche.

...I have never bought into the knife as chopper idea.

Which quality long blades have you used?

With the axe or hatchet a heavy duty knife isn't needed.

A long blade has a number of advantages, among other things it is vastly more efficient clearing brush and limbing small sticks, it works much better as a draw knife, the point is easier to use clearing bark, and in the winter it works better for ice blocks.

I still frankly have trouble seeing the need for a sharpened pry-bar ...

This is more for heavy utility than bushcraft.

...who wants to lug around three knives all day?

I would not call carrying three knives "lugging", I worked in construction a few years back. A standard tool pouch weighs much more, carrying the pouch is insignificant compared to actually doing the work, same as carrying a few knives compared to actually cutting and moving wood.

-Cliff

 

[randjack]

Oops . Different Linton. Hell, that makes me think entirely differenctly about you, you SOB. [Just kidding. Promise.]

 

[North61]

Cliff Stamp Asks,
Which quality long blades have you used?

I have used the Cold Steel Trailmaster that I rehandled in maple for a much better grip and the Swamprat Camp Tramp, which is a better knife in most respects. To be honest I haven't figured out what exactly they are for though I have taken the Trailmaster on solo snowshoe overnights and find it's massive sharpness comforting.

Cliff Stamp States,
A long blade has a number of advantages, among other things it is vastly more efficient clearing brush and limbing small sticks, it works much better as a draw knife, the point is easier to use clearing bark, and in the winter it works better for ice blocks.
This is more for heavy utility than bushcraft.

I seldom need to clean much brush when camping...Even here in the Boreal forest I can find a clear spot for a site. I have spent 21 years with Native Canadians and have pretty much adopted the native tool kit. Mors Kochanski has the same idea...a sharp slicing knife and for long trips or winter trips an axe for heavy work. A good man can do a lot of things with an axe.

I have been known to carry a crooked knife for carving/shaping wood but It isn't neccessary and I carry it for entertainment and practice. The only thing I use a long knife for is for igloo building North of the tree line and this requires a thin blade.

I would not call carrying three knives "lugging",
-Cliff[/QUOTE]

It is when you hike with a wife and two kids...one of whom always seems to end up being carted for at least a part of the way.

 

[atlanta]

When I am out amongst the wildthings I carry a case jr stockman,along with my pronghorn,gransfors bruks wildlife hatchet,and my leatherman wave.
I believe that edge geometry is as important as proper forging and thermal cycles.If you miss one of these fundamentals then you miss the boat.Honestly ANY knife will do in a pinch,but what we are talking about is versatility and value.
I know on a week long trip my kit tends to weigh more than others, but I refuse to give up comfort for a cpl of pounds.

 

[knifetester]

North61, very interesting commentary and perspective. Good reading, I would like to hear more about your experince in the NWT, it sounds terribly interesting!!

Cliff

Multi-function tools can't compete one on one with specialized tools in their niche.

Yes, I prefer to carry more multiple tools, each faily specialized myself. However, I usually don't go very far afield, so this is easy for me.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I have used the Cold Steel Trailmaster that I rehandled in maple for a much better grip and the Swamprat Camp Tramp

Neither of these are dedicated long bushcraft knives. The new Rat Daddy has the right length and design to be such a knife, though many would argue for 3/16" vs 1/4" for brush and light wood work. I'd take 1/4", in fact probably 3/8" if it was available.

The Camp Tramp is more of a heavy utility / emergeny / survival knife and doesn't have the length necessary for an optimal brush blade, nor the heft which would allow it to compete with a quality hatchet in wood clearing ability.

The Trailmaster has the length and heft, but the edge is too thick and obtuse and really wants a heavy relief to be optomized for wood working. The edge profile could be cut in about half.

A good man can do a lot of things with an axe.

I cut 10-14 truckloads of wood each year with an axe. Yes they work quite well for that. However I don't tend to cut a lot of 6"+ wood for burning or construction while camping, though I would certaintly appreciate one in extreme colds. I would rather carry a long knife on my hip while hiking though than a full size axe on my shoulder. A hatchet and long knife carry the same however and while I would prefer the knife in most cases, I would not be displeased having to work with a nice hatchet.

-Cliff

 

[North61]

Knifetester:

Well since you asked:

As an Educator I am at best a weekend warrior but I have been a big proponent of outdoor education and culture based education so I have had some great experience with Elders.

In Nunavut we did a lot of work with elders and students igloo building, caribou and seal hunting, sewing, food processing, camping and tool building.
We would suspend the curriculum for several weeks every year to concentrate on these things, (except the Grade XII's who had diploma exams)

Even a duffer like me could learn a lot.

I am more of a rookie here in the forest but am coming along. I had some bad trips as a young man in Nunavut brought on by my refusal to listen to and learn from the practices of local people. This arrogance cost me some pretty bad frost-bite and a few close calls. I survived with youth, strength and fitness and since I have none of those things anymore I had to get smart.

So here in the forest I have tried to learn from the old timers. We have created a good outdoor ed program in my new school. The old-time tool kit for the Boreal forest is:

1) A decent knife the blade about the size of your palm. A mora is the classic though because most old timers also hunt a hunting style knife is also common.

2) A good axe. Hard to buy now but Gransfors Bruks Forest axe is a classic...no old timers have these as they are expensive but they do have a hardware axe reprofiled to similar qualities.

3) Swede saw

4) The real old timers carry a crooked knife. This is used to carve and shape wood.

5) Sharpening Equipment. A steel for the knife and a file for the axe.

With the above equipment a good man can build a cabin, feed the fire, build a taboggan,snowshoes, canoe whatever needs doing. I have seen work done with these tools at the Dene Cultural Institute which rivals(surpasses) what our shop teacher could do with 20,000.00 worth of power tools. Obviously the above kit is overkill for a week in the woods but if you are talking about survival it has stood the test of time.

If I am going on a short trip I might take my one handed trail master which has a knife/saw/awl for wood work/fire and if weight permits a mini or wildlife hatchet for help feeding the fire. This is a small easily packed version of the above. You could substitute a big knife for the hatchet I suppose.

Lot's better than three knives that might be different but basically are still knives. If bringing more than one tool why not truly diversify?

 

[North61]

The new Rat Daddy has the right length and design to be such a knife, though many would argue for 3/16" vs 1/4" for brush and light wood work. I'd take 1/4", in fact probably 3/8" if it was available.

Cliff don't those conservative rural Newfoundlanders give you a funny look when you carry a sword into the bush?


Cliff Stamp Writes: I cut 10-14 truckloads of wood each year with an axe. Yes they work quite well for that.

Holy cow Cliff I cut 3-4 with my little chain saw and I think that is a lot of work. I tell you what when we go camping I'll cook and you do all the wood work. I make woodstoves for the tent and love a warm tent at -40. Anyone cutting 10-14 truckloads with an axe can use whatever they want in the bush IMO.

 

[knifetester]

Cliff Stamp:

The Trailmaster has the length and heft, but the edge is too thick and obtuse and really wants a heavy relief to be optomized for wood working. The edge profile could be cut in about half.

A few years ago Chad posted a picture of a Trailmaster that he had re-worked by another guy on the forum I can’t remember who. Anyways, it had a full concex grind to a very thin wood working edge, the handle was either G10 or Micarta and I think the top of the guard had been ground off. Chad was comparing it to a Gransfors SFA. He said the axe had significantly more chopping power. Even so, that Trailmaster sure looked like a nice knife!

Personally, I prefer a more blade heavy knife. That Rat Daddy looks really nice.

North61:
Thanks for the background information, very interesting. Great post, very informative.

The old-time tool kit for the Boreal forest is. . .

I really liked that you included the saw in there, as it is an essential piece of kit for me.

Yes, the axe, saw, thin knife, crooked knife combonation seems very popular on many outdoors forums. I think that having many specialized tools is a more comprahensive approch, whith each tool being very efficient at its assigned task. The cost of being more efficient at a specialized task is the loss of versatility, which I would define as broadness of scope of work.

Take the Crooked knife as a rather extreme example. For carving bowls, spoons and other depressions, it is the bomb. Much better than the other common field tools. Many times easier than using a 9” knife to carve out the hollow. On the other hand, it is not very useful skinning rabbits, splitting wood, etc.


The axe vs. knife debate has raged on for years, tat is for sure. I think personal preference, ability and skill are the predominate factors rather than the inheirant abilities of the tools themselves. I happen to like both big knives and axes. They each have their advatanges and drawbacks.

I would readily choose a good brush balde over an axe for limbing, for example I would prefer a good Valiant Golok (i.e. one with a solid Heat treat) over even the GB Scandinavian ful size limbing axe for limbing small branches.

Cliff don't those conservative rural Newfoundlanders give you a funny look when you carry a sword into the bush?

That is an interesting point. There are times that I would like to carry a big knife, because they are fun to use mostly, but end up carrying a hatchet instead simply for that reason. Having a SFA strapped to my pack will not raise any eyebrows on a camping trip, but having my RD9 strapped there might get me locked up in the pockey.