Help: Chinook II Confiscated by Canada Customs

V

Vess

Joined
Oct 2, 2001
Messages
583
Well, it finally happened... :(

I had a Chinook II shipped to me from USA, and today I got an official letter from Canada Border Services Agency, the Prohibited Importations Unit, letting me know that the Chinook II is considered a prohibited weapon, since it is possible to open it by means of centrifugal force. So, now what do I do?

The letter outlines the following three options:

Option 1. An appeal of this decision. How? Any suggestions on what might convince the officials? Are there any papers or anything available from Spyderco or Canada Customs themselves regarding lockbacks such as Chinook II?

Option 2. Abandon. The knife is destroyed.

Option 3. Export it back to the USA, but this has to be done by an authorized prohibited items exporter, with I am not. Basically this option does not apply to me, and I can't make use of it. As a private citizen I have no permit to export prohibited items.

So, what are my options? To let Canada Customs destroy the knife seems like the most hassle-free alternative, but I'd rather appeal the decision, if there's a chance that the decision might be reversed. What do you think? The downside to this is also that I can't sit on the phone all day calling the official who did the examination or anything of the sort, unless I take a day off work just for that.

So, in short, any suggestions are more than welcome. If someone from Spyderco can chime in and let me know something useful, that would be great too. If someone needs to contact me privately, my email address is vgrynko@hotmail.com

Sigh... Well, that's about it. I figure I'll wait a day until my head clears and look at this objectively, but let me know if someone has had any experience with appeals to Canada Customs. Thank you all in advance... :)
 
Hi Vess - your situation really sucks rocks! I'm not sure what to tell you, as I don't have experience shipping knives TO Canada, only having them shipped to the USA FROM Canada.

What exactly defines a "prohibited items exporter"? Is it some kind of permit? Any chance that a knife dealer would be able to "export" it for you? I have ordered knives from a few custom makers in Canada, so I wonder how they got around the export problem, as they would seem to be private citizens. Is it enough just to have a knife business?

Sorry I couldn't be more help...Good luck.

Canada's knife laws seem pretty strange. I'd really like to see some statistics to back up such legislation. I find it hard to believe that a criminal would choose a knife as a weapon of choice when holding up a bank or generally attacking people for whatever reason, due to lack of "range". A knife is more suited to self defense since people can usually run away from it if you are trying to control them. You COULD use a knife in these situations, but I'd just be curious to see how many people actually DO...
 
Vess,

Damn, what a bummer! This just happened to me as well with an Al Mar SERE 2000. I tried option one, to no avail. The second (appealed) decision was the same.

I am now trying option 3, and I was told that FEDEX or PUROLATOR are both "Customs Bonded Couriers" (they think :confused: ) and can export the knife back, but unfortunately the Forumite I got the knife from will no longer respond to my emails, so I may be out of luck. Apparently it is supposed to be returned to the same address it was sent from :( . I have been speaking to a very nice lady at the Appeals office and she is trying to get this changed for me, so that I can send it to someone else, as I have a U.S. friend who is willing to recive it for me.

And to think, all we had to do (had we known) is to have the sender crank down on the pivot screw a little for us until we received the knife so that it couldn't be opened "centrifugally". :rolleyes:

Jeff/1911.
 
Vess,

On Monday, I'll look up the lady's name and number (with Customs) and email them to you. This way, perhaps she can help us both. :)

Jeff/1911.
 
I'm sorry, but I challenge ANYONE to open that knife by centrifugal force. Thats a crock of crap. The customs person wants it for themselves. Thats bull excrement.

Too big...maybe.
Too scary...ok
Too dangerous...whatever

Illegal because it can be opened by centrifugal force, thats bullshite.

I'd challenge it. I'll be the first to send you a donation to a lawyer fund, If enough of us send $10-$15 or whatever, that should be enough.

Its just the principle of the thing.

B.S.
 
I know 2 guys I work with which have the Chinook 2, neither of them had theirs seized by Canadian Customs. I'd diffenitly try to appeal it.

The only reason I could see them considering it a gravity weapon is if it was loosened so badly that the blade could come out with the slightest flick.

Most companies when shipping to Canada though will tighten up the knives, so tight in some cases it is impossible to open without loosening. At least that has been my experience.
 
Wgat do you stand to lose by appealing? The answer to this is what would determine my course of action.

If its just a little money or time, I'd say go for it. If it could cost as much (or more) as ordering a new one, I would say order the new one, you're more likely to end up with a Chinook in your hand.

Surely there are Spyderco dealers in Canada? - I expect they carry the Chinook, legally. Perhaps that will help your case.

I don't know what the Chinook's opening mechanism is like, but the only knife I have that I can't flick open (inertia) is my SOGwinder 2.

The rest, including the light bladed lock back Calypso Jr, can be opened in this way. But if the Chinook 2 is anywhere close to the sogwinder I'd say they are lying.
 
man, that sucks, have sent 2 knives to canadas myself w/no probs (a EKI commander and a spyderco starmate) but did tighten them down, have heard that they will confiscate if the knife can be opened by flicking it, even if it takes an exxagerated motion/etc to do it, so if ya ship to canada TIGHTEN UP THE PIVOT SCREW TIGHTLY, wouldnt have known to do it myself, but a bud up there new the drill, silly a$$ laws imho.

greg
 
oh, FWIW i would appeal the confiscation myself, although it probably wont help get the knife back, but hope it would,

good luck!!
 
Well, I was planning to appeal from the beginning, but I am just not sure how to go about it. I was hoping someone went through this and can point out where to get proper forms, etc.

I can't spend a day on the phone, I work 8-6, and the half hour lunch break I just spent on hold with no results. Taking a day off just to talk to some customs bumhead (if I ever manage to get off hold and actually get someone on the line) doesn't seem like it will accomplish much. So, if there are any official forms I can fill out and mail to the address I was given, please point me in their general direction. I am reasonably sure that I will never see the knife, but I can try, all it'll cost me is the cost of mailing the forms to the customs.

Sigh... I can't believe they are trying this crap. I mean, Chinook 2?! How the heck does that happen. I talked to the forumite who mailed me the knife, and he assured me that the knife could not have been flicked open, so it is definitely BS. Just hope I'll manage to get it back, although I'm not holding my breath... :(
 
If its worth it to you, I'd get an attorney and have him deal with it, but as it likely wouldn't be worth it, I would simply take the loss and buy another localy if possible.
 
As far as the appeal goes: Hopefully you can get some statement from Spyderco stating that the knife was never designed to flick open. next, list all the Canadian sources where you can get the knife from, proving that the knife has been allowed into Canada before and is available here. i don't think the appeal requires any special forms, just type it out and send it to the address on the seizure form.

I have a big Spyderco folder-the Gunting and the pivot does loosen enough over time that it flicks open quite easily. I imagine this is what happened to the Chinook. This may be an expensive lesson that can only be avoided by always telling the shipper to tighten the hell out of the pivot. CRKT M16's have also been seized because of the same circumstances (story was on canadiangunnutz.com)

Another way to avoid this is to have the goods misdescribed when shipped. The last blade shipped to me was declared as "stickers". It sailed through without being opened. I'm not sure waht happens if customs finds out about the misdescription. They can't punish the receiver as it was not his fault.
 
Guys...

If you lie on an official customs form..Yes those little Green stickers are official,, they can snag it,, if they want...

alot of that stuff goes through Xray,,a knife is easy enough to spot...

Your best bet is to get in touch personally with the weapons expert and talk with him nicely...

Explain your case to him with some of the above points..
It worked in my case...

ttyle

Eric...
 
For future reference, "cutlery", "tool" or "hand tool" is a description which is honest and accurate, without shouting "weapon of mass destruction" in the way that "knife" does. Strange world we live in.

Not only would I appeal, I would complain, too. I might wait until I see the outcome of my appeal, unless they stonewall me. In the UK you have to go to court to appeal :eek:

Make sure you get the name of every one you speak to, write down what they say and tell them you're doing it. They WILL contradict themselves or each other eventually. If you're reasonably certain that the reason given is BS, it calls into question the honesty of the people entrusted with the government's authority. I imagine that the department responsible for selecting and overseeing these people would be interested in ensuring that they behave in an unquestionable manner. If they're not interested, I imagine there are some politicians and newspapers who will be interested in dereliction of duty by government bodies and abuse of power by individuals. This is unlikely to get you your knife back in itself, but its cheaper than a lawyer, and just requires a little letter writing time. When you show that it is legally available in Canada, and the beatiful work you have done on knives, it should make you look like an honest, reasonable individual who has been wronged by abuse of the system. How many more honest, reasonbable people have been wronged? "why...that could be ME!"
 
Just spent several fun-filled hours going through the results of knife-related appeals. Almost all appeals were dismissed. What I learned from them:

1. Showing that the same knife can be bought in the store across the street does nothing. The focus of appeal is THIS knife.

2. Saying that the knife is not functioning as intended and that the pivot can be tightened will not work. The tightening of the pivot is not considered a proper or permanent solution.

3. Saying that you are a collector will not work. Collectors are not exempt from the law, nor are there any provisions in the law for a collector.

4. Saying that the knife must be defective (admitting that it can be opened centrifugally) and should be sent to the manufacturer will not work. Even a defective knife that becomes a centrifugal opener as a result of a "defect" is still illegal.

Basically, the only common seed all the appeals I read through had was this: all that that customs official had to do was take the knife being imported, and by any means manage to flick it open. If he does, the knife is lost. No argument made (at least not in any of the archives I searched through) made a difference. All that the review board will be concerned with is one thing: can the knife be flicked open? If it can' it's gone. The fact that I can walk across the street, buy a same one, and walk home with it in my hand whistling happily does nothing.

If I missed a major argument I could be making, let me know... :) I think that short of the customs officer failing to flick the knife open in as many tries as he is given, there's no way the appeal will work.

Next, just like Jeff/1911, I will be exploring the option of exporting the knife back to seller or to Spyderco, so that they can tighten the darned pivot pin, loctite it, and send it back here... :) Now I just need to find out how to go about exporting the knife and how much a "bonded carrier" will charge me for it.

Jeff/1911 > If FedEx and Purolator are actually bonded carriers, maybe exporting the Chinook II back to sender will work for me, I just need to find out how to actually do it. I don't suppose I can call FedEx and ask them to pick up a package at the customs and ship it back where it came from. Can't be that easy... :(
 
I have this vision of some "gorilla-armed" "weapons expert" who's only job for Canadian Border Services is to "flick" open every knife he (she ;) ) possibly can - Buck 110's, SAK's, Vess's Chinook, etc.) I bet even my Greco Falcon Folder wouldn't be safe (and I can't open it with one hand let alone flick it). I guess we'll all have to switch to collecting fixed blade knives - just not push daggers, belt buckle knives, fixed blade kerambits, probably d-guard bowies, etc. etc. etc :grumpy:

David
 
Is there a way you can make them prove to you that it can be 'flicked' open? Sorta like the cop pulling you over for speeding and you asking to see his speed detection device? I just wondered if this was a possible avenue in Canada. I know that in most U.S. states there is the burden of proof on the part of the goverment entity. Just a thought...wish you luck!
 
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