Help Needed With PATTERN / MODEL No. Project

Shepherd Jim

Shepherd Jim

Joined
Mar 21, 2010
Messages
174
Okay! I volunteer! (note: those are words I try to say out loud as little as possible?)

back story: I've been searching the Camillus Collectors' Forum here on BF positive that I would eventually find a list of all the Camillus "pattern numbers"

I love to organize and collate and I'm going to start a list of Camillus "numbers". Of course, I have little idea about what I'm actually facing. So initially I'm hoping to hear from folks like Tom and Phil who had some "inside, behind the scenes" knowledge of the inner workings. Some of what I've read in my search for pattern number info suggests that Camillus might not have been as disciplined as WR Case in their assigning of and consistency in the use of identification numbers.

I guess the first question I'd like to have discussed is "What is the difference between "pattern" and "model" numbers? I know from some photocopies that Tom sent me last year that the Camillus rigging (spike) knives, the #695, #696 and #697 ...as well as sailor knives Camillus made for other companies: the Buck #315, the Case #6246 and the Ka-Bar #1121 were ALL assembled using pieces stamped out with Camillus Die No. 5734.

I'm thinking that the "Die Nos." were too far behind the scenes to be meaningful or useful to us collectors. While it will be interesting to know that two different "models" were made using the same "die cut pieces," we'd probably consider a listing of the "model" nos. to more interesting and useful.

Next step? Input? HELP!
 
Take a look at my web site. The published price lists have all the Camillus numbers and prices by the year. The catalogs tend to show only a portion of the knives offered.
As for model/pattern numbers I believe we use them interchangeably. There was an effort back in the 20's to use the same standard pattern #'s between companies. Each company assigned it a model number further complicated by catalog and computer numbers...
A Daunting task!
Larry
 
When I worked at Camillus the workers in the factory ussually referred to knives by their pattern numbers. The workers in the office ussually used the sales numbers. For example a toothpick or fish knife was a #5369 pattern, but was also known by its sales number which could have been a Camillus #5, #25, #31 or #32. Camillus also made this pattern for Buck, Kabar, Winchester, etc. Knives were also identified by the pattern number such as #5369/1 which indicated 1 blade or #5369/2 which meant the knife had two blades.
Sometimes a sales number was assigned to two different knives. A #10 knife could be an American Wildlife two blade trapper or in the late 1940's it would have been a barlow knife. Confusing.
For collectors I suggest that they use the sales numbers to identify a knife. Then the Camillus catalogs and price lists can be used that are posted on lrv's website. We have been working on this for several years.

Tom Williams
 
Update: I'm working with Larry to "convert" the pdf (Adobe Acrobat format) files on his Camillus Collectors website so they're searchable. This conversion will also enable the copying of the model and price info into Excel spreadsheets.

Tom: I have to agree that using the Camillus "sales numbers" will carry along more detailed information for all of us. But, it would be interesting, if possible, to keep track of the "underlying" pattern numbers. Is there any cross-ref record of pattern vs. sales nos.? Another question: what do you call those index card "shop floor records"?

RAIN today in Midcoast Maine -- Mud Season is truly upon us!
Jim
 
Just a bit of an update:

Okay, not really much to report. My other life keeps interjecting itself -- our flock of sheep has been having lambs, we even have a little ewe bottle-lamb with a broken leg living in the house.

It turned out that Evernote. while it does convert pdf's and even image files into being "searchable", does not really produce a usable OCR product. So I am resolved to just going through some of Larry's (Irv) catalogs and price lists and creating an Excel spreadsheet listing the old fashioned way.

When I'm done, if it's deemed worthy and usable maybe Larry will store it on his website http://www.collectors-of-camillus.us/ where others will be able to contribute.
 
Pattern #s are an interesting topic for me; I knew the pattern #s & ignored the sales #s! :p

But, as with all things Camillus, it does get a little complicated sometimes.

For example:

The Remington R4466 (1988 Muskrat Bullet Knife) was made from Pattern # 5779 bolster scales (Camillus Boy Scout Knife) & Pattern # 5773 blades (Remington R1173 1983 Small Trapper Bullet Knife).

Hey, it seemed like a good idea at the time! :o
 
Phil,
So when you (Camillus) combined the 2 patterns (5779 & 5773) did you give it a number of its own like 5773 1/2 like old Schrade Cut did?
They went a bit nutty with the numbers.
Hope all is well with you.
 
lrv said:
Phil,
So when you (Camillus) combined the 2 patterns (5779 & 5773) did you give it a number of its own like 5773 1/2 like old Schrade Cut did?
They went a bit nutty with the numbers.
Hope all is well with you.
Click to expand...

No, our system (fortunately) did not allow that!
There actually was inherent logic to it:
The R4466 assembly was termed A-5779-X-XX (X represents characters I have forgotten :o)
It was then comprised of all the relevant 5779 parts (eg 2 pocket springs E-5779-X-XX) with the addition of the 2 5773 blades.

It was actually a good flexible system.
It is logical that some parts, developed for a particular pattern (e.g. clevis, shield etc)
could then be shared with other patterns.
 
Shepherd Jim,
I have some information on some of the older patterns that may help you. I have drawings that show the shape of the knife and the pattern number. Camillus used some traditional patterns that were in production for many years, but in the 1980's and later many new patterns were added. Phil will remember these times because many new knives were introducd and new customers like Remington started to have Camillus make knives for them.
I tried to learn all the pattern numbers as they were introduced. This was important because the sales office used sales numbers and the factory used pattern numbers. If I called a department in the factory and inquired about a #99 knife they would not know what I was talkimg about. I had to ask about a Camillus #5779 4 blade camp knife, which was the pattern number. I sometimes confused them because I knew a Camillus 4 blade camp knife as a #14 pattern. That was the old pattern number for camp knives before the #5779 pattern was introduced. The #1 hawkbill pruner was a #07 pattern. The #27 electrician's knife and the government TL-29 were #57 patterns.
I will locate some information on pattern numbers and send to sac troop and he can post it here.
Tom Williams
 
Tom, this is very interesting.
I do not quite understand - the 4 blade camp knife has changed a pattern or a pattern has changed the number? In what year did this happen?
What other models were made by pattern #5779? BSA 4-blade Camp Knife? BSA Norman Rockwell knives?
Vitaly

P.S. Did you get my email?
 
Vit_213,
Different patterns have been used for camp knives at the Camillus factory. The #14 pattern was used extensively during WWII. Hundreds of thousands or even millions of 4 blade camp or utility knives were made by Camillus during WWII. Most collectors have seen the 4 blade utility knife with the "U.S.A." shield and bone handles that was a #14 pattern. This pattern was also frequently made after WWII through the early 1970's. The last entry for the #14 pattern knife that I could find was for a Robeson knife made in March of 1973. The #14 pattern can have 1 or more blades, but the records indicate that most of this pattern that were made by Camillus were #14/4-(#14 pattern with 4 blades).
The #5779 pattern is very similar to the #14 pattern. The earliest entry that I found for the #5779 pattern was in 1984. I recall that we made many knives using this pattern for the Boy Scouts of America. Phil could best answer the question on how long Camillus used the #5779, but I believe it was used until Camillus closed for many customers like Case (#640045R), Remington (#4466), KABAR (#1152R) and Imperial (BSA knives).
The March, 1973 date for the last recorded entry for the #14 pattern was not the last time this pattern was made. It only indicates the last entry in my records. The #14 pattern was most likely still in production when the #5779 pattern was introduced and even after. Both patterns could have been in production at the same time. I think the #14 pattern was discontinued in later years and most camp knives were of the #5779 pattern. I do not recall seeing any #14 pattern knives in the Camillus factory in later years while the #5779 pattern was frequently made.

Tom Williams
 
CAMCO said:
Shepherd Jim,
I have some information on some of the older patterns that may help you. I have drawings that show the shape of the knife and the pattern number. ...<snip>...
I will locate some information on pattern numbers and send to sac troop and he can post it here.
Tom Williams
Click to expand...

Hey Tom: Sorry about my delay in responding. If the Forum sent me an email about your post it slipped under my radar AND "farm chores" have been keeping me away from the computer. Plus side: we have 18 lambs bouncing about in the paddock.

I'm wondering if you ever sent those drawings on to sac troop. Would he be posting somewhere in the Forums for public display/access? I'd guess that Irv would be anxious to include this information on his Cami website.

Jim
 
Camillus Camp Knife #99

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0_6aa10_1912fca0_XL.jpg


I think that it is a pattern 14/4. Surprisingly, it looks like as new :).
 
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