Hmmm...but is it "fair?"

Kalindras

Kalindras

Joined
Aug 24, 1999
Messages
933
Question for all...

In the very few years that I've been making knives, watching the forums, and talking with other makers, I've come across a wide variety of opinions on just what is 'cricket' to do, while making a knife. Some people say that you can't call yourself a knifemaker unless you practice 'Sole Ownership.' For some, a forged knife is automagickally better-made than a stock-removal piece. Still others eschew certain materials, because they make a knife look 'cheap.'

I guess what I want to know is this: Is Knifemaking about the journey, or the destination? Does it matter HOW you do it, if you make a good, durable piece--well heat-treated, superb edge (essentially, all of the things that we in the knifemaking world work to instill in our products)?

A couple of examples...assume that in each situation, it's been a "Don't ask, don't tell..." situation. None of the makers has offered information about their processes, but you haven't asked, either. Anything you know, you've found out on your own, through research or asking directly:

1) You buy a folding knife from a custom maker. After using it for several months, you find out that the maker uses a system of jigs and milling to grind out his blades and put the bevels on, rather than grinding it out 'by hand'. Until now, you've been pleased with its performance, using it as your EDC. Would it remain so? Would you feel somehow 'cheated?' Would you buy from that maker again?

2) You're considering buying a katana from a well-known maker. While touring his shop before the purchase, it becomes apparent that his blades are the product of many artisans' efforts, as you meet his fittings maker, his scabbard maker, and his polisher. Would it matter? Would you still buy the sword?

3) You're trying to choose between two swords, roughly equivalent in pricing. One maker works in a small, one-man shop, using traditional methods, and turns out perhaps five pieces a year. The other takes advantage of gas forges, power hammers, and all of the latest technologies to produce 35-50 swords a year. All other things being equal, which smith would you buy from?

These are just some of the questions I've been thinking about, as I move forward in my making. I know, I may be thinking too much, but if I make it too easy, then what will keep me awake at night?!?

:D :p :D

Kal
 
Well, first off. Life ain't fair. Once I figured that out and got used to the idea I have been much happier.

It does matter how you reach your goal. If you have dealt dishonestly with folks, it will bite you in the nether regions.

1) Do your homework before you buy. Ask the maker everything you want to know. He/she will be more than happy to answer all your questions to the fullest ability. The reason for jigs and fixtures is to reduce price by reducing labor. Unless you want to pay $3000 for a LL folder, the makers will be using these features. Making a folder from scratch is a very difficult process. There is alot of technical layout work involved. I don't know about you but I like to make more than $0.50 per hour.

2) Hate to tell you, but all throught history 99.9% of all swords were the product of more than one person. To produce the best sword possible it becomes necessary for artisians to specialize in one aspect of the construction. It can take many years to learn one aspect. If a maker took the time to master every aspect he would die before he ever finished a single blade.

3)If EVERYTHING was equal, I would buy from the small shop. However, everything is not equal. If a small shop (5-6 blades a year) is charging the same as a full shop (35-40 blades a year) the small shop owner would have to be a hobbiest. There is no way that he would work for pennies an hour if his living depended on his work. Turning out less swords means less exposure, less experiance and a lower value retention. In the real world I would buy from the fully stocked shop.

Why do makers use tools to speed up production? See the answer to question 1.
 
...I'm not sure if I'm being clear in what I'm asking...

The morality of any specific maker in those situations wasn't really what I was hoping to discuss. Moreso, the situation itself. I'm hoping to get a sampling of opinion, based more on what corners makers feel are 'acceptable' to cut/work around/improve than to discuss whether good things happen to bad people or vice versa (just ask my wife if bad things happen to good people...she married me, didn't she?!? :D ).

Perhaps something a little bit nearer to me, personally...

When I first started in Knifemaking, I learned a lot by buying blade blanks and finishing them out. I know a LOT of makers out there that would say that I couldn't call myself a knifemaker, while doing that. Fine. However, the product was still a very usable knife. A knife that was just as comfortable, just as sharp, and just as deadly--in a bad situation--as anything I've ground out from barstock, since. So, obviously, a large percentage of the making populous doesn't feel that finishing blanks is "Real Knifemaking." You may be a good carpenter, but you aren't a Knifesmith.

Likewise, I hear a lot of discussion on occasion, that forged knives are more "Real" than stock-removal knives. Again, side-by-side, many times you couldn't tell them apart. They cut very similarly, act the same, etcetera.

See where I'm going with this? I'd like to get an idea of what the Knifemaking community feels are respectable practices for the making of a knife. This is largely due to the fact that I respect many of the other makers I've met and know, and it's important, I think, to be well-respected among those in your field.

Am I making ANY sense with this?!?

Kal
 
Heh, this is just the "what's a custom knife" thread rephrased. I predict there will be no answer for this thread. The reason is there are two types of people:

- Judge something on it's quality regardless of manufacture. (ie: the destination crowd)

- Cares about how something is made for whatever their own reasons. (ie: the is a journey crowd)

Since I'm a destination person, the journey people don't make much sense to me. I'm sure the reverse is true too. :p

The thing to do is state clearly how you make knives, then let the customer decide.
 
My "quest" in knife-making is to use reliable methods to make a knife that performs and performs well, that is pleasing (to hold, to use, to look at), and that is fully dependable (I.E. after performing well the first time, and everytime after that for its entire life, is un-damaged, re-sharpens easily, and is still as pleasing to the user as the day they got it, if not more so because of its performance.) I recently failed to deliver this, to someone very important to me, yes she is my girlfriend and she is important to me because of that, but in this, the importance that came first, was that she was the customer. I'm trying to do my best to fix my failure, and reimburse what she lost by counting on me to deliver the first time.
I f-ed up, and I'm the first to say that I did and I'm stepping up to make it right.
I would expect the same attitude, and outlook from a maker I was ordering from. "I make it in such and such a way." "I do my best to deliver a quality product." "The knife isnt performing like promised? I am very sorry, please send it back to me and I will do everything in my power to make it right."

It doesnt matter to me if a maker uses jigs to help him grind his bevels, or milling to make his scales, as long as he has integrity, and honesty about his practices and product, makes a good product, and treats his customers well.
There are days when I would love to have a support staff to help me in the shop, LOL, and if I was purchasing a katana from a maker that had support staff to help with the fittings, and the sheath making, I wouldnt be bothered by it, as long as, like I said before, he had integrity, and honesty, about his work and practices, made a good product, and treats customers well.
Two sword makers, one working from a small shop, one working from a big major shop... If the smaller shop turned out just as good a product as the larger shop, even though they both were honest, had integrity, treated me well, etc. I would go with the smaller shop, just to give business, and maybe help bring a little more attention to the little guy. And then the next time I wanted another sword, I would go to the larger shop, and buy from him.

Now if I spent $550 on a custom fighter, and the maker assured me he ground it all by hand, hand shaped the guard, hand fitted the scales, etc. etc., and later I find out that the blade was shaped and ground by CNC machine, that the CNC machine shaped guard and the scales, that all he did was apply most of the satin finish, and leave it for a hired employee to finish it up, fit the guard and scales and slap a kydex sheath on it, then I would feel cheated. And I would have been.
If I'd know that show it was done, and thats what I'd wanted and paid for, then I would be perfectly happy.

Honesty and Integrity, Good Product, Good Treatment of Customers. It doesnt matter how they achieve the product, by hand, with help of jigs, power hammers, etc. as long as those things are there.

I mean is it really any different to emply techniques/tools in the shop to make it easier on you, than to get a sheath made by someone else because you dont have a knack for sheath making? (like I've done) I dont think so. I dont think it changes the fact that is a "custom knife", as long as the maker is honest about how he works/what "help" he employs, and his product delivers the performance expected.
Thats perfectly fair.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding too??

(Just wanted to add that there are times when the journey is important to me. But that can be any means of the journey, depending on the mood I am in, and what I am looking for. And the end product, the destination, is still just as important. The journey should be knowable to the customer anyway, so if I were in a "the journey is important too" mood, I would use that to choose the right maker to deliver everything I was after, based on the "journey" I was in the mood for, and the destination stuff I said before.)
 
There isn't any real answer to your question. One mans shortcut is anothers skill. One customers gripe is anothers pride. I like to make my everything (Don't always but like to ). A lot of it sure as hell won't pass for art but they cut and look the way I want! I like rustic and I scrounge. I've been known to peel the Ivory off of very old piano keys. Try selling that to some customers! There are always going to be purests. Nothing wrong with that. It's the way they like it. If a smith feels his knives are better than another because he forges that's fine. If another feels his are better because he uses coal, that's fine and if a third feels his are the best because he uses cow chips from teenage cows....so much the better. As RW pointed out, swordsmiths have through the ages, had toadies to do one job. They did it until they could do it in their sleep and then got a promotion.
In other words, every craftsman has his feelings about his procedures. As long as he is up front about it with his customers it's OK. There really isn't a right or wrong way, just a different way!
 
I think all MAKERS should
at least
know how
and be able to
take a piece of High carbon steel and know the differance
between it and Mild steel,
hammer it and grind it, heat treat it and sharpen it and use it,
all by hand.. OK you can use a stone grinder and
a vehicle for heat..:) use masking tape for a handle if you want,
if it is to his satisfaction (trying not to fool him self)
then he made a knife, hence knife maker, maybe he should make two?
there's that MAKE word again,
the basic knife is fairly easy,
the ART of knife making is in the
sole and takes time, how you get there will very greatly, be
up front with the customer let he /she decide what they want
and how they want it.
now it gets complicated.. :(
keep in mind it's only My opinion ..AT LEAST :footinmou :)
 
in man's pursuit of happiness, the only caveat he has to put on himself is respect for other individuals' rights. this includes a fair value-for-value trade, care for the environment, protection of one's life and property, etc.

you pay the right amount of money for the value you desire. any product that suites your particular needs and wants is a complicated swap. why? because it is supposed to satisfy a battery of wants. a failure by the seller to deliver any one of these desired attributes constitutes an unfair trade.
 
Like Mr. Clark said Life ain't fair. RECOGNIZE THAT FACT AND GET ON WITH LIFE.

My philosphy too, sorry sometimes it feels good to yell.

Fairness in business dealings is another matter entirely.

If you use cnc equipment and sell it as handmade then you have crossed the line. If you have somebody else do the blades, somebody else do the handles and still another do the guards. Then you are a knife company.

Forgeing and grinding make no difference to the steel as how they arrive at their finale shape. All things being equal and done properly, heat treat, finsih etc. I see no need to forge some of the high end stainless. Some do I just don't. Some production ss blades are drop forged, and very good knifes.




If you grind out a knife and sell it as forged that is cheating.

I forge and do stock remvoval depends. I make knifes from new steel and recycled but I make sure this is known to the customer.

I do a spec sheet on each knife I sell.

Be honest. That solves a whole pack of troubles right there.
 
Kal I don't have an answer (don't think there is one, really) but couldn't pass this one up. I haven't read all the forgoing as carefully as I should so hope I don't repeat anyone else's remarks...

Like Peter I think makers tend to settle on a making philosophy and follow that; the arguments come when they somehow get on the track they're more right than someone else. They're not.

This issue isn't one of "fairness."

There are just different ways. The Neo Tribal folk pride themselves in making knives using the most basic tools possible and produce knives that function as well as any that come from the most sophisticated CNC shop - and just as esthetically pleasing too.

Personally I've never made a kit knife because to me that's not making a knife, it's assembling one. I've hesitated building a folder kit because it wouldn't have the investment of my own skin that makes me feel like a knifemaker, yet I know It'll be longer before I go down the folder road because of it; building a kit would certainly flatten my learning curve. (I shouldn't be so stubborn, and I'm working on it. :) )

Perhaps it would be useful to formalize what you're after and query makers to learn whether they're doing what you want. It's certainly fair to expect to receive what you ask for.

My specific answers:

1. The knife has done what I expected of it and unless I only wanted non-jig knives I'd buy from the maker as long as his work met my workmanship and performance requirements.

2. I'd have more confidence in a katana made my specialists than by a single maker; as said above, this is work that cannot reasonably be done well by a single human.

3. All other things being equal I support the small guy. Hell, I'll bend over backwards to support the small guy.

Dave
 
...and in full swing, it appears!

Thanks for all of the responses, guys. It's interesting to get folks' take on these type of issues.

Interestingly enough, it seems like the prevailing opinion is that, as long as one fairly and honestly represents one's methods and materials, pretty much anything goes.

I'm of the "Malcolm X" school of craftsmanship, I guess. I'll do whatever I have to make a knife look, feel, and perform the way I want it to. Fortunately, I'm not usually in a situation wherein my consumers have demanding preferences on how things are done. Most of my work has been done for my own edification and gratification, with the end results being given to friends, associates, or family. Thus, I've not been constrained from trying unusual materials or methods. Moving forward, however, it's been a concern to me, as I anticipate stepping up my production and trying to market more (o.k., any) blades, that I maintain the respect of the other makers in the market. Having seen the hue and outcry that rises up here and in other venues, when a maker is perceived to be "cutting corners" or "cheating", I have no interest in trodding that path.

Given the general tone of the responses here, though, I don't see a great concern as I progress, with regard to trying new things and inventing a few new wheels. I guess that's what I'm getting at, with all of this...just sort of assuaging my own doubts about the craft and my place within it.

:D

Kal
 
Kal,
We all have to start somewhere. Your starting point is no worse or better than a lot of folks. I started with kit knives a number of years ago and I am now going whole hog into forging (finally). Kits are a great jumping off point and one way of how "they" get you addicted. Another way is that "they" get you to forge with coal just once and every time you see a coal forge burning your mouth starts watering.

Why do a kit? They are an excellent learning tool and not only that, you get to choose what handle material to put on it. You can learn an awful lot about fit and finish. If you haven't noticed, there are some fairly good blades and folder kits out there these days. The potential is there for you to end up with a nicer package than is offered by your local sporting goods store.

CNC and stuff? That is a completely different subject.

Let people know up front what the product really is and you are ahead of the game. My advice to you is to keep on doing what you are doing and continue down this road. There is no telling where it will lead you. As they say when you first embark on such a journey, good luck and God speed.

C Wilkins
 
I make damascus billets for a friend of mine he wants to put billet by
reg ellery on the cros guard. I tell him you would not put the steel manufacture 440c by BHP on a stock removal stainless steel blade.

If I make the billet and he grinds it he has made the blade in my opinon. He is a guild member and does not want people to give him the credit for my work.

I say a baker makes the bread, the mill hand grinds the wheat to make the flour the baker uses. All the ingredients are useless without the skill.

Tell your customer the truth. If it is a kit knife say so. Then put a premium on the custom knife and charge what it is worth.
 
Reg is also referring to the "sole authorship" idea, another black hole. :D

I'm not too hung up on sole authorship like many people are, and for good reason - if I were to make a knife of such quality it would be suitable for engraving or scrim or such, I am flat unable to do it and would have to hire that kind of work out. Same presently goes for damascus.

Most people using damascus made by others do give credit to the smith, and I believe rightly so. Making damascus is somewhat more complex and artistic than grinding wheat, my friend Reg... :)

But you could take it too far...who would mine their own ore, smelt their own steel? Nobody is who, so "sole authorship" is really a misnomer from the word go.

On a second but mildly related topic, I tend to think of those who forge their blades to shape "smiths" and think of stock removal folk like myself as "makers". Some time back a famous smith took exception to the name of this forum because there were stock removal makers here too...so you can take any lable too far.

Gotta watch them lables; stereotyping will bite your butt every time. But this is a fun thread. :D

Dave
 
This kind of gets us back to what I mentioned in my previous post, represent what you are doing.

How many times do you pick up a knife magazine and see a knife by so and so, scrimshaw by this person or that? I am looking at the February 2002 issue of Knives Illustrated as I type. On page 31 there is a picture of blade that states the following:

"Here's another one of Fisk's silver knives. this one dating back to 1997. The blade is ladder-pattern Damascus, and the engraving is the work of Julie Warenski."

(Actually, in this case I don't know which would be more honored, Jerry Fisk for having Julie Warenski embellish his knife or the other way around.) Both are at the top of their respective crafts!

This may appear to be an abstract case by some folks but I am sure you see my point. Once again, just give credit where credit is due, that's all. If the premier bladesmiths of the world do it then what does that tell you?

C Wilkins
 
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