Hossom Bowie Vs. Leg of Lamb! And the Winner Is...

Joined
Oct 19, 1999
Messages
418
Greetings All!

As promised, here is the definitive cutting test for a fighting knife- meat on the bone.

On my way home from the office today, I stopped in at Johnny Foodmaster and picked up the biggest leg of lamb they had. When I got it home, I measured it:

20" long, 9" by 6" thick at its greatest diameter just below the greater trochanter of the femur bone at the hip, and 6" by 6" at the thin(knee) end.

I then drilled a hole through the femur bone 2" from the thick hip end, threaded through some cable and hung the leg vertically from an eyehook in the ceiling at head/shoulder height.

Finally, I pulled the next generation Hossom http://www.hossom.com Millennium Bowie from its case, stepped up to the hanging leg of lamb and took a #3(horizontal forehand) angle practice slash at it about one-third of the way up the thigh. Severed it clean off. Cut it like water. I didn't even bother to look at the cut off end until later. I just assumed that the bone must have somehow ended higher up the thigh. I was wrong. When I looked later, I had neatly cut through 1" dia. bone as well 7" of muscle!

OK, so far so good.

Encouraged, I then took another #3 angle slash through the very thickest part of the thigh. I felt a bit of a pop this time and cut the thigh clean through so that the section below the cut hung by a strip of outer fascia no thicker than 1/8th of an inch. The bowie had cut neatly through the 1 3/4" diameter femur bone in the center of the thigh. And the cut was absolutely clean- no tearing of the muscle whatsoever. Remember that is a horizontal cut through 9" by 6" of muscle and fascia, not to mention the bone! Absolutely beautiful.

If you think that I was happy with the new bowie design yesterday when I wrote my initial review on this forum- see:
http://bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/001214.html

Well...I was ecstatic now!

So, I figured, what the hell, and cut a #2(45deg. downward backhand) slash through the greater trochanter of the hip joint and out the other side of the thigh- amputated it clean off! When I measured the cut, I had cut first through 4" of fascia and muscle, then 2 1/2" of femur bone at a 45 deg. angle, then another 7"!! of muscle on the way out! And the cut is clean, no tearing. And it was easy.

Oh, and did I mention that for the sheer fun of it, I then thrusted at the remaining thick end of the thigh as it hung there? Thrusted clean through 9" of muscle several times to the bowie's guard like it was cutting through a hanging sheet of paper.

And after all of this,how is the blade you may wonder? Not a nick, scratch, or rolled edge. Absolutely pristine. And, once again, it still neatly transects a hanging sheet of paper.

My friends, this knife has surpassed all of my expectations. I own swords that can't execute cuts like these.

Not to be morbid, and speaking strictly academically, in my professional opinion as a physician, Jerry's new Bowie in the hands of someone who knows how to swing a blade would easily decapitate a man, sever his arm anywhere along its length from the shoulder on down, or cut most of the way through his thigh in one slice, not to mention being able to run him through completely with a single thrust. That's absolutely amazing for a blade this size. I guess that when Jerry says that hollow grinding the blade decreases friction through the target, he knows what the hell he's talking about!

I wish that I owned a digital camera so that you all could see for yourselves the magnitude and beauty of these cuts.

Just think what I'll be able to cut when I have Jerry's new Millennium Espada in my hand? Heh, heh, heh...
wink.gif




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Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.


[This message has been edited by Gaucho (edited 01-09-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Gaucho (edited 01-09-2000).]
 
Two quick addendums.

First, for those who would rightly argue that opponents generally don't arrive naked to the battlefield:

I took a leg from a pair of jeans, turned it halfway inside out so I created a double-layered tube. I next tied off one end, threw in the largest cut piece of lamb- approx. 9" by 6" by 6"- and tied off the other end. Creating, in essence, a two-layer denim sausage.

I hung the denim sausage up and slashed at it with a #1(forehand, 45deg. downward angle) cut. Sliced it clean through- denim, muscle, and bone. QED!

Finally, for those who may be wondering if I am some behemoth Pro Football Lineman type and that's how I am able to cut like this with a bowie, let me assure you that I am average size. I am 6' tall, weigh 185 Lb., and am built lean like the middleweight fighter that I am. In other words, nothing special. It was the marvelous blade geometry of Jerry's new bowie, plus my cutting technique, that did the job, not brute strength. But then cutting well isn't about strength, is it? That's the whole point.

Peace,



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Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.


 
Gaucho Sama, I have to confess I'm a bit humbled by your testing. Had you told me you were going to challenge the blade like this I would likely have told you bluntly, "it won't work." As a knifemaker though, not a trained martial artist, I am sadly ignorant of the skill and technique that can greatly amplify the qualities of a knife. The best hunting knife in the world, in untrained hands, won't skin a deer any faster than a factory special.

I make the best blades I know how, guided by the marvelous advice that you, Matt Draper and Don Rearic have given me, but I would not expect every knife I make in the hands of just any user to achieve the amazing results you obtained here. While I agree personal size of the wielder makes little difference, technique, hand speed and likely other attributes that come from many years of intense training certainly do make a huge difference in blade performance.

I also want to give credit to Paul Bos, who is simply the best heat treater there is, for making my steel all that it can be. I shape it, but the metal is turned to fine steel in Paul's ovens. As you noted in your other review, these blades have that tight springiness that comes from only the finest steel.

The blade is mine, the steel is Paul's, the skill is all yours. It's a good team.

Thanks for posting this.

Jerry

------------------
Jerry Hossom
knifemaker
www.hossom.com


 
Jerry,

Greetings!

There is so much hype out there about custom fighting blades, and yet so many of them disappoint when you actually get them out on the training floor. When you find a knife like your bowie that performs the way a fighting knife should, well then you just have to tell the whole world about it!

After all, what are knives like these for? These blades are not meant to be wall hangers, or utility knives, or anything else except combat blades. A combat blade must move very fast in the hand, be extremely secure in all grips, protect your hand from the opponent's blade, be able to withstand incidental blade contact, and cut and thrust like a demon. That may seem like too tall of an order, but your knives do all this with ease.

Jerry, IMHO you are the MAN!

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Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.


 
Wow, this is totally scary. I am very impressed with your knife handling skills AND the knife. I went to Mr. Hossom's web site and was equally impresssed by the images. I don't normally respond strongly to SS, but that blade shape does it for me. Sort of a reverse clip point Scramasax. I think maybe we are seeing the smallest tip of a move in the knife fashion world away from the classic Bowie fixed blade to an earlier mode. i love it. Any one else see Scramasax here?
 
Fox Creek,

Good morning!

Ahhh...a person who knows their blades! Outstanding!

As I'm sure you know, all bowies are derivative of the Scaramasax, and Jerry's new bowie is no exception. We didn't purposefully intend it to look so much like one, we just tried to optimize the blade profile for quickness, slashing, and thrusting ability. What you see is what we came up with- the evolution of an age-old battle proven design, executed in State-of-the-Art materials.

As far as Stainless Steel goes, I was right there with you until I had the chance to test this bowie in ATS-34. I'm completely convinced now that if you want a long blade in Stainless that will perform and stand up to the rigors of training and combat, Jerry Hossom can make it for you.

Still, I love A-2 for long blades, so I order my personal blades from Jerry in that steel. Although, let me tell you that he has started to do some tremendous work in CPM-3V as well. He is confident that the greater toughness and wear resistence of CPM-3V(Vs. A-2 or ATS-34) will allow him to pare off several ounces on any given blade Vs. the same knife done in A-2 or ATS, while at the same time increasing the blade's overall strength and performance. The 3-V is apparently brutal to grind, etc., so knives done in it will have to be a bit more expensive- but if you just have to have the best...;0. Anyhow, as I always tell Jerry, the tale is in the tape, so I will be testing a CPM-3V blade of Jerry's one of these days(when poor man has had a chance to catch up with all the new designs we are testing now!)and I will post a review of how it really performs. We'll see, it just might revolutionize fighting blades as we know them.

Oh, and speaking of swords! Check out the two gorgeous prototypes @
http://www.hossom.com/gallery

The first one is the new Millenium Espada that Jerry, Matt Draper, and I co-designed(polished but without its handle scales and bolsters). The picture does not do it justice. The blade curves continuously forward of the forte- for those unfamiliar with the term, the forte is a thicker, unsharpened area of blade just forward of the guard used to: 1.block and break the opponent's blade, and 2. as a hold for the second hand if desired- to maximize its slashing capability. And just look at that handle- talk about secure! I can't wait to have it in my hot little hands.It is in A-2, heat treated by Bos and cryogenically stress-relieved.

The second sword is the new hand and a half Millennium Saber that Jerry co-designed with Don Rearic. I won't tell you a thing about it because Don is going to post an extensive review of it soon.However...A little bird told me that it is awesome!

Below the swords in the gallery is a pic of the new Daga and fighter prototypes that we are developing for use with and without the Espada and Bowie. More on those soon.

Finally, take a look at the Filipino Combat Arts forum. Don just E-mailed me that he has posted his review of the Millennium Raptor- a beautifully evil new hookblade.

Enjoy!

------------------
Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.




[This message has been edited by Gaucho (edited 01-10-2000).]
 
WOW! That's some great cutting. I have a 12" blade on order, so I will have to see if I can get any kind of similar performance from it. I may have to get a Hossom one day, too. Nice stuff, apparently.
-Bart
 
What are the dimensions of the edge profile? Thickness behind the bevel, grind angle ?

-Cliff
 
Cliff, I think you'll be surprised. The edge is really much heavier than you might expect, since it is intended to cut bone and withstand some abuse up to but not including Hollywood blade-whacking. Since this is all done by hand and eye, the measurements are not precise. Immediately behind the edge, the blade is about 0.030-0.040" thick. This is a little misleading since the edge is somewhat bullet shaped, as the Moran edge typically is. The sharpening angle is somewhere around 20-22 degrees. Again I have to hedge here because the edge is rounded into the bevel. The intent and what Gaucho has demonstrated is a ballistic shape that is highly effective against soft targets, while being strong enough to deal with bone and casual blade contact. It is not well-suited to chopping wood. I do make an excellent camp knife for that purpose however.

------------------
Jerry Hossom
knifemaker
www.hossom.com


 
Thanks for the details Jerry, it looks like an excellent combination of durability and cutting ability. I am going to have to get some lamb and see if I can't get a baseline.

When you comment it is not well suited for chopping wood could you explain in a little more detail? Do you mean performance or durability wise? How would the edge grind be on one of your heavier camp knives?

-Cliff
 
I'll be interested in your lamb results. My point about chopping wood had to do with both knife weight and the edge. Weight is a definite advantage on hard targets. My camp knives use 1/4" steel and I make the edge more wedge shaped.

Even so, I personally believe that a flat ground blade is better for penetrating hard materials like wood. That is because the blade and the edge work together to separate the substance being cut - the edge to actually cut and the blade to serve as a wedge, which widens the cut and in turn makes the edge's work easier as it penetrates.

There is also a very good reason why a hollow ground blade will have limited penetration on such materials. Whereas a flat ground blade acts as a wedge, the hollow ground blade does not. The first contact the target will have with the blade, after the edge cuts into it, is at the top of the grind where the hollow grind flares abruptly outward. That area is a lousy wedge since the frontal surface is far too steep. What happens is the blade stalls almost immediately.

I probably lost some camp knife business with that little confession, but I believe it's true.

------------------
Jerry Hossom
knifemaker
www.hossom.com


 
Ack, remind me never to stand in the way of anybody wielding any of your blades, Jerry!
Not unless I'm wearing something casual...Like a tank.
The lamb cutting is very, very, very impressive. Granted it is a large blade, but still. In combat against someone that knows how to use a blade that size, you could easily lose a hand or an arm...Chilling prospect.
Have any of you considered how well the tip of the Millenium bowies will penetrate soft bodyarmor? Or even a trauma plate?
Just curious...that's all...
Oh, btw, Jerry. Do you ever make knives by other peoples designs? I got one I might want you to make for me in 3V... Let me know, please.

Regards

Kage

" But, Officer, I swear! The midget was already on fire when I got here!"

------------------
"Move like Water, strike like Thunder..."
 
Carnifex,

It is interesting that you should mention soft body armor.

As preparation for a series of LEO Knife Defense Courses that my partner Guru/Sifu Jason Silverman and I are going to teach, I have, in fact, attacked a standard(used) police kevlar vest with Jerry's new Bowie. The vest stops single slashes, as would be expected, sustaining damage. The vest does NOT stop thrusts with this blade- the blade goes right through the vest deep into the target. Not bad huh?! Actually, this did not surprise me given how the Bowie thrust through denim covered lamb. Now, this was an older model vest- although still very much in use. I don't have one of the lastest "super" vests to try yet, but I am working on it
smile.gif
.

The above vividly illustrates how you simply cannot rely on your body armor to protect you against edged weapons. You must learn to defend effectively against edged weapon attacks if you intend to go in harms way.

Mario

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Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.


 
Carnifex, Thanks for your kind remarks. As for the point penetration issue, that particular bowie has a pretty good point but I have no familiarity with body armor, so I can't respond as to how it would perform against it. As a matter of practice, I ask the customer when a knife is ordered to tell me their preferences with respect to blade belly or point or a balance of both. This knife was a pretty good balance of full cutting belly and useful point. Point penetration with these knives is reasonably good, since the deep hollow grind provides a small cross-sectional area for a knife this size. The point itself is needle sharp, but the steel at the point is flared just a little to keep it from being fragile. I suspect the armor penetration issue is mostly one of being able to cut the Kevlar as the point penetrates. If that is so, slightly more point than is on this knife might be necessary to provide the necessary shearing angle.

I'll answer you via email, concerning your interest in another design. Thanks again.

------------------
Jerry Hossom
knifemaker
www.hossom.com


 
Ooops! There's your answer. I was too slow.

And that is why there are knifemakers and knife users. I just make the tools of war; others fight the battles.

Jerry

------------------
Jerry Hossom
knifemaker
www.hossom.com


 
Actually Jerry, I have to add just one fine point to your statement. You design the knives, then you make the knives, that warriors will wield in battle. Although your modesty is one of your more endearing characteristics, you really do deserve more credit for the design and function of these blades.

As a proud owner of a Hossom bowie with a 12.5 inch blade, I'm still nearly speechless about the beauty and functionality of these knives.

Thanks Jerry, you're an artist and a gentleman.

Matt
 
Ay mierda! It went straight through the vest, Gaucho??? Damn...
What level was this vest? IIA or III-IIIA?
I'm still curious if it would be possible to punch the tip of the Millenium Bowie through a steel trauma plate. It looks to me as if the tip is a bit too thin for that. Hmm, now that I think about it...I don't think anybody would wanna try and punch their Hossom knife through a steel plate. I might try it if I had one, but I'm nuts anyways so I don't count.
And, Jerry, you really are being too modest. You seem to have created a design that actually works exceedingly well at doing what it's designed for. Very few makers can claim the same...

My 2 cents..

Regards

Carnifex

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"Move like Water, strike like Thunder..."
 
Thanks for all those kind words. I think it would be possible to design a blade and point to puncture steel plate, but then it would in turn be defeated by someone tempering the steel plate, etc., etc.. The whole thing is like tank warfare, bigger guns, better armor, and so it goes.

But the better approach has to be attacking where the armor isn't. I'm reasonably confident that an amputated hand will reduce an opponent's dependence on his armor vest. It would certainly mess up his attack options.



------------------
Jerry Hossom
knifemaker
www.hossom.com


 
Carnifex,

Now do you see why I love this guy sooo much?! Jerry's understanding of the true issues involved in knife combat is as stellar as his blades. Jerry, Mama Mia you maka me so proud!
wink.gif


What Jerry says is absolutely on target. Tactical awareness dictates that I assess instantly what sort of body protection- armor, thick coat, gloves- an attacker is wearing and then to avoid those areas as much as possible and cut him where he is vulnerable. Now, I am certainly no "Dong" Cuesta or Bill McGrath- yet
wink.gif
- but I(and every one of my training partners for that matter) can cut you within a fraction of an inch of any target I choose in realtime sparring. So go ahead, wear armor, I'll just cut you everywhere its not.

In fact, even though people get so excited about live blade sparring, the truth of the matter is that once you learn to control the adrenaline rush, the biggest problem is constantly reminding yourself not to attack your training partner in unprotected areas. Of course, if you happen to be using one of Jerry's blades, you also need to be controlled so you don't run your partner through or chop off something he/she is really attached to, armor and all!
wink.gif


So, controlled sparring with live blades, as useful as it is to prepare you to deal with facing an attacker with a live blade, can get you into bad habits if that's all you do. IMHO it is just as important to spar full out with trainers that ding you but don't maim you so you learn to: 1. really move your head, hands, and body to avoid the opponent's blade and not rely on armor to absorb the cuts, and 2. attack any target you choose that presents its during the fight.

Mario

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Gaucho

Tuvo muy mala suerte...se callo en mi cuchillo.




[This message has been edited by Gaucho (edited 01-13-2000).]
 
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