How I got a 2010 Forum Moose/A review of Queen Cutlery

[FLymon]

I want to start by making it clear that this tale is in no way meant to reflect poorly on any of the good people who give of themselves to make these forum knives a reality. I truly appreciate all your efforts, and hope to take part in one of these in the future.

Once upon a time I took delivery of my 2009 Bladeforums Traditional Forum Barlow. I was less than impressed with what I call a "bottom of the barrel" knife.
The Clip blade rested firmly against the liner when closed. In fact the liner actually moved it closer to center as it closed the last 1/4" or so. The pull on the clip blade looked like the blade might have tried to jump out of the fixture when the cut was started. One of the liners was kinked causing a nasty gap between the liner and spring. And just to pile on, the scales were a poor match for each other in the color department. That's the chance you take with Stag, but when combined with the other issues it's just salt in the wound.

Poorly cut Pull, and gap

Another shot of the gap

Maybe this will help you understand "The Gap"

Stag handles (they both look good, just not together)

So I get the address to send it back to be fixed and return it to Queen. I ask that the knife be replaced or repaired by having the Clip blade replaced, the liner replaced, and since they would have it all apart, if they could, see about finding a better match for either scale before re-assembly. I told them I completely understood if there was nothing to be done about the Stag, but please correct the rest.

I get the knife back exactly as I sent it in with a hand written note on an invoice that they could only straighten the blade since it was special order. That's it, no apology or any other explanation, just "here it is". So they stuck me with the same knife, and I will admit that the blade did not hit the liner anymore after it was bent and twisted so that it wouldn't:

This picture shows the bend, but you have to look down the edge to see the twist, but it's there.

So I stew over this for a while and offer it up for sale on the forum complete with above pics. No one wanted it. Then I sent an email to Queen telling them if this was the best they could do they could keep the knife, and where did they want me to send it. I heard back from the director of sales for Ontario and he really was sorry for the state of things at Queen and wanted me to work with him to get satisfaction. We agreed that Queen would give me my choice of their current production (including Schatt & Morgan), and a 2010 Forum knife in exchange for the 2009 forum knife.
I picked out my production knife, and they said it would be a few weeks and they would ship it to me. I planned on shipping my 2009 back to them as soon as I had something else in hand, but I guess they wanted it back first since about 6 weeks went by and I had heard nothing more from them.
I had talked to Waynorth and he was on board with Queen providing an extra 2010 for me so after the 6 weeks I just send him the 2009 knife so he could see it for himself. I assume he said something to Queen because less than a week later I had my S&M Coke Bottle Jack. Now I have them both.

Overall they are both allot nicer than the knife they replaced, but I will point out the flaws as I feel I owe it to the sorry asses at Queen.

Has anyone else noticed that Queen/S&M is working on a chisel grind for their blades? The Clip on the Coke Bottle was the worst but I reprofiled it before I took a picture. This is the Pen blade, the picture actually makes it look better than it is:

My 2010 Moose had the same grind on the Spear blade.

The only other thing worth mentioning on the S&M is the back of the Clip blade looks like it was a little soft when stamping the long pull maybe? It has this depression opposite the pull where it should be flat. I tried to show with the shadow. Not a big deal, but not right either.

The 2010 Moose has a few issues, and I am really not sure if I should worry about 2 of them or not, so please give me your opinions.

Uneven polishing? the spine of the Spear is not completely polished. The corners look like they are sort of worn.

Burnt tip. Should I be concerned?

This is my first Ebony handled knife so I am not sure if this is a crack at the pivot pin, or just wood grain. If it is a crack, I assume it will get worse. Should I bother complaining?

In the end I got 2 for the price of 1. I really hope Queen can turn things around because I do like their knives when they are right, but from what I have seen and heard lately I doubt I doubt I will buy another Queen product sight unseen.

 

[DennisStrickland]

looks like a crack to me, poor grinds. when queen is good its good but when it's not might as well get a rough rider.
dennis

 

[Modoc ED]

That's quite a story and sadly it reflects the norm for Queen/Schatt & Morgan these days.

Normally, I'd say send the new knives back for repairs but I doubt if you'll get any joy just as you didn't get any joy the first time you sent your 2009 Forum knife back.

It won't be long before Queen shuts it's doors. Their quality control is terrible.

I don't know what happened to them but I'd say from about March/April 2009 to present day, their products are hit and miss. Some of their knives come through dang near perfect and others come through in terrible shape.

The head of the pivot pin on your Moose looks awful and it looks like there is a gouge below it. It's hard to say looking at the picture but it looks like a crack to me -- at least the one below the pivot pin does.

I hope Queen is not selected as the manufacture of our 2011 Forum knife this year.

 

[338375]

Wow... I don't really know what I would do, if I were you.
I always thought that the S&M line was of very high standards, but in all honesty I've never owned one.

I really like the looks of your Coke Bottle though, other than the noted flaws. The 2010 BF's knife is a terrific looking knife too..

It is nice that they offered a two for one deal, but now you have two knives that you are not happy with. I'm not sure if thats better or worse...
I really wonder if you would have gotten any satisfaction, if it had not been for Charlie ?

If not, that is sad. I would almost be inclined to just let it go, and either keep or sell them.

As we know, any company can have a few bad ones slip through, and have someone on the other end drop the ball, but the big concern is whether its the norm, or a rare instance

 

[hoopster]

I consider myself pretty picky but even I wouldn't sweat some of the flaws you've noted. That said, some of your other findings are definitely unacceptable. If I was in your shoes I'd just settle for two knives that you can use without worrying about scratching a flawless collectible.
Then steer clear of Queen knives unless you can inspect first.

 

[FLymon]

It is nice that they offered a two for one deal, but now you have two knives that you are not happy with.

I don't expect perfection.
I can reprofile the blades so that ultimately is not a deal breaker, and the indention on the Clip blade of the S&M is not a huge deal. I might have bought the knife had there not been another example to choose from so I am not unhappy with that one, to be fair.
The Moose is a really cool knife, and if the tip will polish out and what looks like a crack in the handle doesn't grow ( I really don't know anything about wood handles), then it will be worth keeping also.

 

[mqqn]

Hi Stu -

Your critiques are fair; the things you point out do indeed reflect poor craftsmanship in my opinion.

The grinds are similar to what I found on my 2010 knife, but I corrected that myself, no big deal.

I am pleased with my 2010 knife, and it is good enough for what I paid, to me.

I do think that, overall, Queen tried to make us the best quality knife that they could, and I doubt that they made a lot of money on the job.

That does not excuse poor quality, but in the end, I think my 2010 Moose will outlive me with proper care irregardless of a few minor flaws that do not impact the usability of the knife.

I have a very close friend who is very sensitive to flaws in anything that he buys. Any new car purchase for him is an absolute ordeal for years. He has been told by service managers that his car "is a production vehicle, and you cannot pick it apart like a street rod." That is as close to the exact quote as I can remember.

I guess it boils down to what you can live with and what you want to go through to get things corrected.

I agree with your noticing the flaws, and concur that they are flaws. I would just let it go myself, have a nice drink, and then go whittle up a rooster with the knives.

best regards -

mqqn

 

[kamagong]

Stu,

I'm sorry to hear about your experience, but I think you might be a tad picky considering that you are dealing with production knives here.

The cut of the nail nick on the 2009 is problematic, as is the bent clip blade. I understand that some knife designs require crinked blades (i.e., the stockman), but with two parallel blades like the barlow the blades should be as close to true as possible.

On the other hand, I don't consider the gap that big a deal. That's pretty much within the range of normal for slipjoints. Sometimes there's a gap. Sometimes there isn't. I know we wish that all slipjoints didn't have the gap, but gaps between the springs and the liners are something we all have to accept occasionally.

I also don't think there's a problem with the stag scales. Both sides are pretty nice IMO. I agree that they could match better. But even with slightly different shades, I think that those scales are very good for a production knife.

With regards to the Coke Bottle, the depression on the blade doesn't look right. I'd contact Queen about it.

The dull blades on the Coke Bottle and the Moose are a fact of life with slipjoints. Slipjoint makers just can't seem to figure out how to put a good edge on their knives, I don't know what it is.

I don't think the burnt tip is anything to worry about. I've seen it on all sorts of knives, and the problem resolves itself after a few sharpenings. Sorry to hear about the ebony scale, but that is part and parcel of natural handle materials. They expand and shrink depending on the weather and climate. I've seen handles of expensive ivory and stag hafted by master cutlers crack. But that scale has already cracked and the internal stress relieved. There is little chance that it's going to get any worse and if you get it replaced there is a good chance that the same thing can happen to your replacement.

It seems that you are a man of very discriminating tastes. It might be time to start focusing on custom slipjoints, I don't think any of the production companies can consistently put out a product that will meet your standards.

- Christian

 

[338375]

You raise some good points Christian.
I have always had a hard time dealing with things that have faults, but that is a personal thing I have been fighting for years. There is no excuse for sub par workmanship IMHO, production knives or custom...

I have used this analogy before, but when I think of consistent quality in massive numbers, I always think of Victorinox. I don't have numbers to back it up, so its just a guess, but I would think they produce more units per year than most other companies, and they are consistent. No reason other companies can't do the same.
Is part of the difference the work ethics in the U.S compared to other countries ? I don't know the answer to that one, but I have wondered about it...

Where we draw the line between what is acceptable, and unacceptable, it will vary from one person to another. Perhaps we knife nuts are a little harder to satisfy than the average consumer.

We know most companies are capable of outstanding quality, because we will see those examples posted up here once in awhile, but the mystery remains why it doesn't happen more often than not

 

[cj65]

I have been happy with Queen in the past, and I love my 2009 forum knife. I am very happy with it. It is too bad you had such a bad experience.

I may be a bit more hesitant to purchase a Queen unless perhaps, it is an older model. I own probably 8 to 10 Queen knives, but I do not have any I am unhappy with. I possibly tend to look the other way to minor flaws. All of these knives get pocket time, and I use them, drop them, etc. If I had a perfect one, I may not want to use it. LOL.

 

[VCM3]

Stu, think you may have expected too much out of these knives.
From what I see,the flaws you show,if I got a knife from them like that,I'd chuckle to myself.I'd still enjoy it,for what it is.Probably display it.Once I got into custom handmade slipjoints,I still dabble in productions,but for carrying & using,I feel,they are inferior,to what I want to carry & use.
I've found that natural materials for scales,while sometimes irresistably gorgeous,are just not going to hold up ,if used the way I use my pocket knife.
But I think ,in a lot of situations,with natural scales,if there is no shrinkage,pin checks aka cracks now,as new,it is only a matter of time before they appear,in some degree,even if just collected/stored vs. used.Sometimes they will be there only minor,some cases,a hundred yrs that way

Now as far as handmade goes,the skill level of the maker will determine the product,plus other things,too. But imperfections will be there,also.

So,where does it end ? It takes a while,sometimes,before you can figure out what & where your gonna do & be w/ all these knives around us
I hope that freakin' ramble helps put things in perspective for you & that moose is sweet,IMO. I dig the jack,too
-Vince

 

[waynorth]

Queen might have a couple of spares left Stu. They made 8 or 10 extras as far as I know. The only detail that worries me is the crack. Otherwise, as some have said, the rest is typical production.
They leave a "tab" at the point when they heat treat as a "sink". It ensures that the tip doesn't get too much concentrated heat, nor heat up too quickly.
When they grind it off, sometimes they discolor it. It should still test a reasonable Rockwell (they tell me).
Send it back after talking to Patrick first, at Queen, just to make sure they have another knife or handle left. They have corrected a few already.

I've been sitting here looking at my Tony Bose Wharncliffe Trapper.
I even slid it under my handy-dandy microscope! I carry it most days. No flaws, except where I bobbled slightly when hand honing it! Walk and Talk are perfect - slightly harder snap when popping into the open position than the closed position. Makes it easier to open, yet secure in use. Man's a traditional knife genius!
But it costs about 20 times the price of a 2010 BF knife!!
Upon reflection, it's worth it!!

 

[Durwood]

As has been said in different ways, if you want precision in a traditional knife a custom is the way to go Even then, there has to be some "forgiveness" in certain areas and price points with most makers--But you can get pretty close to perfection from several makers when comparing against production slippies.

I still enjoy production slipjoints, but again, as has been said, you have to accept them for what they are--Functional, generally aesthetically pleasing knives that will have various imperfections to a greater or lesser degree. If certain "flaws" bother you more than others you might consider only buying production knives after after handling them/seeing them in person.

 

[yablanowitz]

My two cents worth on Queen: If they are that bad at sharpening, they need to stop butchering edges and send their knives out unsharpened. On the 2010 Moose I kept, the clip blade was almost chisel ground, the edge angle was over 70 degrees included (closer to 80 at the heel), and the only way you could tell it started with a sharpening choil was by the small point left next to it where they didn't take the bevel all the way back. By the time I cleaned it up and put a 40 degree backbevel on it, there was no choil left and the edge is 0.030" thick at the back of the bevel. An edge that thick annoys me on a modern tacticool folder, much less on something that claims to be a traditional pattern. The spear blade was even worse, ending up 0.040" thick at the back of the 40 degree edge bevel, with no hint of a choil remaining. My 2009 Barlow wasn't any better.

I'm not a terribly picky person. Small imperfections don't bother me a bit. I carry and use knives with a little blade wobble all the time. I expect a little play in production knives just due to manufacturing tolerances. But these are supposed to be knives, not battleaxes. I already have cold chisels in my tool box, I don't need a folding cold chisel to carry in my pocket.

 

[neeman]

Wanting the very best and not getting it, is always a disappointment.
And my tolerence to faults is proportional to the cost of the knife.

But there are some bottom line faults that warrent sending the knife back to the manufacturer.
And for all the good advice that folk here give, the best is will you carry the knife or are you so put out by the faults that you will not use it.

Queen has a poor reputation for factory grinds.
But recently, I have got both very sharp centered grinds and chisel grinds
And that sends me crazy that they know how to do it, but do not.

And I have only sent one knife back to Queen, and I own quite a few
Their Service Department needs a quick kick in the ,,,,,
They do not value it as a important part of their marketing



I only have production knives, and I live with the luck of the draw.

 

[mnblade]

I'm curious. Do the folks in management at Queen even know that forums like this exist? If not, then they really are on a one-way track to shuttering their doors. :-( I think of all slams I read over their hit-or-miss fit and finish and then compare that to what I read about Rough Riders .....

-- Mark

 

[338375]

I'm curious. Do the folks in management at Queen even know that forums like this exist? If not, then they really are on a one-way track to shuttering their doors. :-( I think of all slams I read over their hit-or-miss fit and finish and then compare that to what I read about Rough Riders .....

-- Mark

In the case of Queen, I'm sure they know all about BF'S

I have to wonder though, if when they do view it, or hear about it, that they simply look at those of us here, as such a small segment of their business, that they simply don't get very concerned ?

If that is true, Queen and others could take a good lesson from Buck about customer service. They truly do listen, and care about the people that buy their products...
Not to say that they don't have their flaws, or have products that end up going out the door when they really shouldn't.
They don't like products going out the door, that really shouldn't have, but when it does happen, they are terrific about making it right with the customer. They are so concerned about happy customers that they will do repair work that doesn't fall under normal use issues, and quite frequently at no charge.

There are an awful lot of people who are extremely loyal to Buck, because of the way they run their business. The fact that they make a great product at a reasonable price, doesn't hurt either.

 

[runninmike]

Those defects were disturbing.
I only have 1 experience with Queen for a new knife purchased and it is a Dan Burke small barlow. The knife is perfectly fit in all aspects but, it had a terrible "chisel" edge as described by a couple of others within this thread. When I spend upwards of $100 or so on a 2-blade jack of any maker's stamp, I expect more than that. Fortunately, the D2 steel is very good and with my stones I was able to bring it up to a very well razor sheened user friendly edge.
I might buy from them again, but.... we'll see.

 

[midnight flyer]

To me, this is always a sad thread to read. I bought 6 Queen knives last year, and one was bad enough to send back to the vendor for exchange. The vendor made sure I got a good replacement, not Queen.

Grinds were flat and true, but the edges on three of them were bad enough the knives were unusable. I kept the knives because the fit and finish was so good. On the others, they were kind of sharp, but the S&M whittler was just plain nasty sharp. So hit and miss here, too.

I learned here on this very forum that I need to greatly lower my expectations when buying a factory made knife. My problem is that I hadn't purchased but a couple of large work knives in years and hadn't purchased any new traditional knives for about 15 - 18 years. Work knives only. My little group of traditionals (almost all CASE) knives did me just fine. Then I found a counter full of Queens and CASES at a local gun store and they got me interested again as I saw some of the old traditional patterns I liked handled in some really nice scale materials. So over the last 3 - 4 years I have bought several new traditionals.

Regardless of the maker, I have learned that poor sharpening, badly matched scales, cracks between liners and springs, light snap when closing (or different snap tension from different blades on the same knife), heavy snap making the knife hard to open, bad grind lines, etc., etc., are all just par for the course. Disappointing, sure. But it seems that it is to be expected these days. I just have to keep telling myself it isn't the 70s anymore.

This is sad for me. I can't afford $350 - $600 pocket knives. I can indulge in a good slipjoint that costs less than $100 and will continue to buy Queen products as long as my favorite vendor (ears burning, Mike?) continues to sell their products. After that, who knows.

The sad thing is to know that Queen (or most others, I guess) could turn out great knife if they wanted to. Three of the Queens I bought (including my split spring whittler!) would measure nicely against any custom I have seen. What is frustrating for me is that they are all so hit and miss these days.

The real disappointment I would have if I was Flymon was the fact that my official Forum knife was subpar. They KNOW these knives are being made for serious knife guys, guys that will in some cases take their forum knives to their graves. They KNOW that they will crow like a rooster if it is great, and have to face the facts if they aren't at least acceptable. And if you are going to get the price you name to produce a specific product for a specific audience, you should deliver. I personally think (although some will probably differ) that I would make sure I had enough money in each knife to make sure I delivered a top line product.

But... that's just me.

I was sorry to read FLymon's post. I hope some way they can resolve that.

Robert

 

[Shing]

The tradegy of this situation is we all know where its headed.

Cheap knives from China with same or better construction will take larger share of the traditional folder market. Queen will loose market share and money and eventually get taken over and closed down and the brand names sold and we'll start getting Chinese made Queen folders. The upside is they might be better quality.

Its happened with lots of knife brands and Queen will not be any different.