- Joined
- Dec 25, 1998
- Messages
- 7,394
How important is it that a custom maker be a guild member? Is it absolutely neccesary?
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
How important is it that a custom maker be a guild member?
- Thread starter shootist16
- Start date
- Joined
- May 19, 2001
- Messages
- 166
There is going to be different ideas on this. I am not in it. I have some friends that were and got out. some will say the only reason there are knifemakers today, is because of what the guild did 25 years ago. All I know for sure is it isn't cheap.
I'm not planing to join. I don't know anybody talking about trying. I know of some makers that the guild called up and offered free membership, but they're too busy to think about it.
I'm not planing to join. I don't know anybody talking about trying. I know of some makers that the guild called up and offered free membership, but they're too busy to think about it.
A while back it was more important to me than today. Now right here at our finger tips we have access to all the information about somebody and his products that we need. Going back a few years that wasn't the case. Being a member of the guild gave a little assurance that the person we were going to deal with had met certain standards that set him out above the others when honest knife information was hard to come by.
- Joined
- Oct 2, 1998
- Messages
- 44,762
Which guild? Many ABS members aren't in the Knifemaker's Guild for example. But I understand your point, Dennis, and it's a good one to think on.
I think in the past it might've mattered to me more, but now the quality of the maker's art and his/her character as a man or woman would be the ultimate barometer by which I'd make my decision.
I think in the past it might've mattered to me more, but now the quality of the maker's art and his/her character as a man or woman would be the ultimate barometer by which I'd make my decision.
- Joined
- May 9, 2000
- Messages
- 29,205
I agree that the quaity of the workmanship is what is important to me. I think that some of the makers that I have bought knives are members of the Knifemakers Guild, but I could not say for sure. This was something that I never even thought of when I ordered a knife.
From what I have seen, there are several groups a maker can belong to. I don't think the fact that he or she is not a member of this or that group effects their ability to make a knife. Some memberships may endorse their abilities but it can't diminish the skills of non-members.
- Joined
- Dec 25, 1998
- Messages
- 7,394
So is the general consensus that it isn't as important as it used to be and really has little if any effect on a makers desirability?
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2001
- Messages
- 70
From my perspective as a novice collector, Guild membership is a significant factor in my decision whether to purchase a knife. It means that the maker's work has been examined and approved by experts in the field. I know there is a great deal that I don't know about the craft so I rely on the judgements of those with more expertise. Also there are things I can't tell by seeing or examining a knife; whether of not blade is heat treated and quality of same, but I trust approval of the Guild.
On the other hand, there are well known makers ("notorious" to use the humorous characterization of Dick Atkinson) and emerging makers who clearly have approval, trust and respect from many knowledgable sources in the field. In that case Guild membership isn't necessarily important to me.
Having spent a great deal of time working in a specialized field, I have learned that the public simply cannot accurately evaluate quality of many specialized products, particularly where craftsmanship is involved, because subtleties and fine details can often be the difference between a good and a poor product. But the general public often doesn't even know to look for these of how to judge them.
So to me it boils down the same as judging credentials in a lot of specialized fields; college and graduate degrees (Guild membership in this field) carry significant weight, experience in the field carries weight, judgement and respect of peers is significant, and opinions of customers is significant. Add 'em up to get a final value.
That's how I see it.
On the other hand, there are well known makers ("notorious" to use the humorous characterization of Dick Atkinson) and emerging makers who clearly have approval, trust and respect from many knowledgable sources in the field. In that case Guild membership isn't necessarily important to me.
Having spent a great deal of time working in a specialized field, I have learned that the public simply cannot accurately evaluate quality of many specialized products, particularly where craftsmanship is involved, because subtleties and fine details can often be the difference between a good and a poor product. But the general public often doesn't even know to look for these of how to judge them.
So to me it boils down the same as judging credentials in a lot of specialized fields; college and graduate degrees (Guild membership in this field) carry significant weight, experience in the field carries weight, judgement and respect of peers is significant, and opinions of customers is significant. Add 'em up to get a final value.
That's how I see it.
- Joined
- Oct 4, 1998
- Messages
- 4,131
To me, as a collector member and supporter of the Guild (Honary member) and the ABS (Associate member), I see these organizations as great sources of education for makers and collectors a like. I do have respect for the folks who participate in any of the organizations and I feel that quite a few makers have at least had shortened learning curves due to their existance.
There is a lot of support and there are a lot of friendships that have developed. I also like to see makers participate in sharing their knowledge no matter what the venue. A willingness to give back is something I personally admire. From that willingness we constantly see the bar being raised as a whole on the definition of quality.
As far as knives in my collection, when I look at my most favorites they were made by people I am close too to one degree or another most of those knives happen to be made by A.B.S., Guild or P.K.A. members.
(I did not base my decisions on memberships, but at the same time I do not think it is a fluke that the first two custom knives that I purchased happend to have been made from folks who particiapte quite a bit (Howard Clark, Mel Pardue)). I did not know of them or who they were when I picked up knives from them. I just liked the people that I met and wanted to own some of their work after stumbling into the handmade section of the Blade Show. (Factory and Hand-made used to be in two different ballrooms.)
By no means does non-membership preclude me from the desire to own a makers work, but there are many folks out there producing quality knives that I would love to own. I can not afford them all so one of the things that helps influence me in addition and equal to quality of the work is the person who made the knife and how they are viewed by their contempory makers and fellow collectors. I look for similar traits in makers that are just starting out.
These are just some loose tendancies of mine. YMMV. (as James used to say)
There is a lot of support and there are a lot of friendships that have developed. I also like to see makers participate in sharing their knowledge no matter what the venue. A willingness to give back is something I personally admire. From that willingness we constantly see the bar being raised as a whole on the definition of quality.
As far as knives in my collection, when I look at my most favorites they were made by people I am close too to one degree or another most of those knives happen to be made by A.B.S., Guild or P.K.A. members.
(I did not base my decisions on memberships, but at the same time I do not think it is a fluke that the first two custom knives that I purchased happend to have been made from folks who particiapte quite a bit (Howard Clark, Mel Pardue)). I did not know of them or who they were when I picked up knives from them. I just liked the people that I met and wanted to own some of their work after stumbling into the handmade section of the Blade Show. (Factory and Hand-made used to be in two different ballrooms.)
By no means does non-membership preclude me from the desire to own a makers work, but there are many folks out there producing quality knives that I would love to own. I can not afford them all so one of the things that helps influence me in addition and equal to quality of the work is the person who made the knife and how they are viewed by their contempory makers and fellow collectors. I look for similar traits in makers that are just starting out.
These are just some loose tendancies of mine. YMMV. (as James used to say)
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2000
- Messages
- 871
I relate this question to how many times I have been asked "Are you a Knifemakers' Guild member?" at each major show I attend.
There are collectors and dealers who will not buy from you unless you are a member of the Knifemakers' Guild, regardless of how well your knives are made, how good your reputation is, or how well you are known.
I vacillated for several years trying to decide whether or not to apply for membership, not that it was "uninportant" to me, but that I wanted to wait until my knives could earn the signatures I wanted on my application. (Those who signed my papers took the time to carefully inspect my work and ask questions.)
To me, Guild Membership is something that cannot be taken lightly or applied simply as a "Good Housekeeping seal of approval" on the custom knives you buy. (How could any organization provide absolute quality control over such a vast and diverse field?)
Rather, being a Knifemakers' Guild member means carrying the responsibility to make the best knives you can, treat your customers and other makers fairly, continually promote the advancement of custom knives, and educate anyone who is willing to listen.
In "dollars and cents", being a Guild or ABS or PKA member might not mean much to some people - but I believe association with any of these organizations should mean much more than that to the maker!
There are collectors and dealers who will not buy from you unless you are a member of the Knifemakers' Guild, regardless of how well your knives are made, how good your reputation is, or how well you are known.
I vacillated for several years trying to decide whether or not to apply for membership, not that it was "uninportant" to me, but that I wanted to wait until my knives could earn the signatures I wanted on my application. (Those who signed my papers took the time to carefully inspect my work and ask questions.)
To me, Guild Membership is something that cannot be taken lightly or applied simply as a "Good Housekeeping seal of approval" on the custom knives you buy. (How could any organization provide absolute quality control over such a vast and diverse field?)
Rather, being a Knifemakers' Guild member means carrying the responsibility to make the best knives you can, treat your customers and other makers fairly, continually promote the advancement of custom knives, and educate anyone who is willing to listen.
In "dollars and cents", being a Guild or ABS or PKA member might not mean much to some people - but I believe association with any of these organizations should mean much more than that to the maker!
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2001
- Messages
- 1,981
George mentioned something that to me is a critical part of Guild membership. That is the notion that business will happen in an orderly, ethical fashion. I'm pretty sure that the first time I read anything about the Guild was that they regulate the manner of business conducted by its members.
I don't know how strong that monitoring/regulation is. But, I'd like to think that if a maker had stiffed a few customers in one way or another that they would be banished from the Guild.
With that notion in mind, I'd be much more likely to look for members from whom to buy, rather than those makers who aren't affiliated with any of the organizations.
Having said that, if I had had enough communication with a maker who wasn't affiliated with any group to believe I had some understanding of his/her character, and I really liked his/her work, I would feel comfortable buying from that maker. But, by the same token, it is extremely unlikely that I would buy from any maker who'd been ousted from any of hte organization.
I don't know about any past affiliations, but the maker who's bizarre life and career is being conducted via forum is not a maker I'd do business with, no matter how much I liked a particular knife or his knives in general.
Since I've only ordered 2 knives, I can't speak about the Guild directly. But, I have ordered my knives from makers involved in the ABS. I admit that there is a likelihood that most of any custom knives I buy will come from members of that organization. That is because of the constant trying to improve and learn all the time on every knife, and to make each knife at least marginally better than the one before.
I don't know how strong that monitoring/regulation is. But, I'd like to think that if a maker had stiffed a few customers in one way or another that they would be banished from the Guild.
With that notion in mind, I'd be much more likely to look for members from whom to buy, rather than those makers who aren't affiliated with any of the organizations.
Having said that, if I had had enough communication with a maker who wasn't affiliated with any group to believe I had some understanding of his/her character, and I really liked his/her work, I would feel comfortable buying from that maker. But, by the same token, it is extremely unlikely that I would buy from any maker who'd been ousted from any of hte organization.
I don't know about any past affiliations, but the maker who's bizarre life and career is being conducted via forum is not a maker I'd do business with, no matter how much I liked a particular knife or his knives in general.
Since I've only ordered 2 knives, I can't speak about the Guild directly. But, I have ordered my knives from makers involved in the ABS. I admit that there is a likelihood that most of any custom knives I buy will come from members of that organization. That is because of the constant trying to improve and learn all the time on every knife, and to make each knife at least marginally better than the one before.
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2000
- Messages
- 525
I have several good friends that are knifemakers. One whose work I like is not a member of the Knifemaker's guild, or the ABS. Yet he taught another friend how to make knives, and this friend will be going for his ABS Mastersmith test next June. To many, a title means alot. While I certainly have a great deal of respect for these titles{I do own knives by Mastersmiths, and Journeyman smiths,as well as Knifemakers guild members}I also appreciate with equal respect the work of makers that have no title.For me, it is the quality of the work by the maker.While it is agreed that a maker in one of these associations has been "judged" by his peers, if you will,there are many makers out there, whom for whatever reason do not belong to some of these associations. This does not detract in the least for me their level of skill and craftsmanship.I am fortunate in that I have good knifemakers as friends that live nearby. I am able to see the "blood, sweat, and tears" that goes into their work and thereby appreciate it all the more.
just my opinion...
just my opinion...
in a capsule i echo what bladezealot said...i recently attended a show in memphis and there were both guild members as well as non guild member displaying their knives.....i ended up picking up one folder and two fixed blades all from makers who were not members of the guild or the abs...i applaud those who apply and are granted entry into these organizations but whether or not someone is a member of the abs or the guild does not influence my decision to purchase a well made knife that has excellent workmanship, tight tolerences, excellent grind lines, has been properly heat treated, backed by reasonable customer service should there be a problem down the road, will perform as advertised and designed, and the maker is fair and honest in their dealings
i also patronize gunsmiths who are not members of the pistolsmith guild and have been quite pleased
just my two cents worth
i also patronize gunsmiths who are not members of the pistolsmith guild and have been quite pleased
just my two cents worth
As a former Guild member (still in good standing), I have mixed feelings about the importance of joining. The rules have changed since I was a member, regarding show attendance. (I could not honor the three-year rule due to school). I have friends who constantly hound me to rejoin (Mel Pardue, Joe Flournoy, Jerry Fisk, and others). I personally think that joining the Guild gives you access to another high-end show. I did not feel the sense of friendship in the Guild that I do in the ABS. Maybe that is because the Guild only really puts on one function a year while it seems that I am constantly at an ABS happening. There is room for all of us somewhere. As far as selling knives...it can only help you. It's just not an absolute.
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2001
- Messages
- 18
I'm new here but have spent considerable time in other knife forums. I am a knifemaker who does not have the time to devote to guild shows. I have had my knives examined closely by good friends who are guild members who told me my knives were guild quality and that I would have no trouble getting in. I just can't devote that kind of time to to one organization's shows. Unless things have changed drastically from what I was told you have to do guild shows for several years. I need to stay close to home and make knives, not travel. I am having a hard time keeping up with orders now. I don't think I could in good conscience charge more for a knife just because I was in the guild. Unless someone can convince me otherwise, I am out. Brian
Guild membership has more benefits for the customer than the knife maker. I'm proud to be a voting member. It says that not only are my knives of acceptable quality, but so is my business ethics.
As far as having to show once every three years, I find it hard to believe that some makers are so busy that once every three years (that's 1095 days), they can't arrange their schedule to visit three days with their customers at a Guild show. Meeting my customers and future customers is very important to me.
Stay Safe,
A.T.
As far as having to show once every three years, I find it hard to believe that some makers are so busy that once every three years (that's 1095 days), they can't arrange their schedule to visit three days with their customers at a Guild show. Meeting my customers and future customers is very important to me.
Stay Safe,
A.T.
- Joined
- Sep 2, 2001
- Messages
- 18
Am I hearing you right? I can become a Guild member and only have to do one show every three years? That is certainly not what I was told so if that is the case I would take another look. Brian