How precise?

[Dementia]

i am probably shooting myself in the foot in asking a question like this .. buuuut:

recently i was speaking to someone who had gotten a mastersmith of the ABS to knock him up a blade...
he wanted a very specific blade style, shape and design ..
he even supplied a detailed drawing with all measurements .

some months went by and finally a blade arrives that resembles the knife .. but doesnt realllly look anything like what was asked for.

when this person called the smith and asked why there was such a difference .. he was informed that the maker required "artistic license" and that the knife sent was what was basically asked for.
finally it came to the point where the knife was returned and the deal cancelled.

so ..
this leads to my question/s

how much of an artistic license does an average person accept in a blade?
personally i am all for artistic license .. within reason and only once accepted by the purchaser ... but how much can a maker sway from the specified design before you would no longer see the knife you asked for?

aslo .. i know that people have come to me and asked for dimensions to the n'th degree ..
in your opinion .. where does the line fall for measurements leaving reasonable and entering into 'asking a bit much' ??
or is it a expectation that if someone comes and asks for a blade thickness of 3.123442mm .. that they really should expect to get it?

i am just curious as to what other people have to say about this..
and i know that it became something of an irritating situation for the person i am speaking about.

cheers.

D.

 

[tom mayo]

It really depends on who you are dealing with....a lot of makers will not make a knife to exact specs......some will. I think the longer their order backlog the less chance you have to get an exact replication of a design. There certainly needs to be a mutual understanding of both parties at the outset. Poor communication always leads to disappointment.

 

[Joss]

That's a very good point, and an important one when dealing with a maker. I think the confusion comes from the use of the term "custom" knife. Most makers I know off just plain don't make custom knives. They make art knives, unique knives, proprietary design knives, knives "inspired by...", etc - but generally no true custom.

I don't know if one should take for granted that my experience is true across the board. However, it's probably a good idea when dealing with a maker to talk to them about how they like to work. Some of them will accept more detailed "suggestions", others will only allow for a simple price range....

JD

 

[Les Robertson]

Joss,

Having done this more times than I can remember. I will tell you that when I send a detailed drawing to a maker, I expect them to do their best to replicate the drawing.

Now in fairness to the maker, there are drawings that have elements that either cannot be done or the maker does not have the equipment and/or skill to do the knife.

At this point the maker should make a "counter-sketch". Showing the potential client what they can expect from that particular maker concerning that particular knife.

Early on I did have a few knives made where the maker took "artistic license". I in turn took "customer license" and did not pay the maker for the work.

As Tom points out poor communication usually leads to disappointment on both sides.

If you ask a maker to make a 4" drop point hunter and that is all you ask for. Then you should expect that maker to make what they feel is a 4" drop point hunter.

Now when you receive the knife it could be built in any number of ways. In this case you as the buyer got what you asked for.

However, if you send a maker a sketch and ask for a 4" Loveless style hunter, hollow ground ATS-34 blade with a mirror finish, single 416 SS guard,full tapered tang with black micarta scales.

Then you should expect the knife to look very similar (not an exact reproduction, unless you specify that).

Whether a maker has a long back order (didn't understand what you meant by this Tom), or not. The knife should be made (as much as possible) to the customers specifications. After all isn't this what ordering a custom knife is about.

Now that being said. I would be interesting to hear the knife makers side of this story.

 

[RHINOKNIVES]

i myself like to sit with the client and listen to what they want. and then tell them what i will or won't do. i just recently had someone want a loveless 4" drop point hunter. and a said i dont copy other makers knives. i told him i would make a Rhinoized drop point,flat grind with intragal guard and a index finger cut out.no tapered tang because it limits the roundness of the handle butt. i told him a price and he said great! lets do it.

 

[Joss]

Les,

As I said, I don't think anyone should draw industry-wide conclusion from my experience. It just means that one of the first thing to assess with a maker is "How do you like to work?" and "What is the maximum level of input you like to get from your customer?". I am sure that there are makers to whom you wouldn't send a detailed drawing. Rather, you would let them quite a bit of leeway by giving general directions and a price range (or maybe those are makers you don't care to work with - but you get my point.)

Obviously, if a maker communicates one thing and does something else, it's a problem. A top maker I communicated with told me quite frankly that the more leeway I gave him, the more likely it was that my knife would ever be made. One knifemaker told me that this issue was 1 thing that made the difference between a craftsman and an artist.

JD

 

[RJ Martin]

As Les pointed out, there is everything from a "generalized" custom to a "highly specific" custom. This is between the maker and the customer to finalize. In the end, what is delivered should be what is agreed upon. When doing a "custom" order, I like to have some leeway to interpret, and, I usually tell the customer just that. As I make the knife, I can get a feel for what the knife really wants to be, and make the enhancements/changes right there. I guess I look at a one-of custom as being similar to a prototype-I almost always modify a prototype design as I build it, rather than saving all the changes for the next knife. This way, I can generally achieve 3 iterations with only 2 knives. I think the same rationale can be applied to a one-of. Maybe the thumb ramp needs to move forward a bit, or, a finger groove needs to be deeper, or, the blade's point needs to be lower. These things are often very evident as the blade is being shaped, even though they may not be apparent looking at a drawing. Since most customs are comissioned by buyers who already like the style of knife the maker produces, it seems reasonable that the buyer would trust the maker to use his instincts within reason.

Having said that, if a buyer wants a 4" blade, a tapered tang and SS bolsters, that's what he's going to get. The sweep of the grind might vary, the handle proportions might change, etc. in order to get the knife to feel right. That's generally something that the customer won't object to in the finished product.

 

[Ed Fowler]

An old knifemakers maxim: "The more detailed the specifications on a knife the less likely the client will be satisfied with the knife". Wayne Goddard about 15 years ago.

He discussed one client and how he had tried to make him his knife for years and never made him what he wanted. The same client called me and ordered a knife "exactly" like one in my Ad. I decided I would make history and provide him the knife he wanted. I sent him numerous knives, each was lacking. As luck would have it, I got the origonal knife that had been pictured in the Ad. back in a trade.

I eagerly sent the knife to him. He returned it! Stating he only wanted one exactly like the one in the ad. I told him it was the same knife. "Well it doesn't look the same"!

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I have had custom knives made to very specific geometries (blade and handle) in order to look at a particular feature or combination of aspects. If the maker decided to change them without discussing it with me it could then end up being a waste of my time if I don't end up with the features I wanted to explore.

However, if I outline particular performance goals, the maker should obviously be free to use their experience to change the design to enhance the performane in those areas. They should be able to bring much to the table in this regard as it is dependent on the abilities of the materials and methods used in the construction.

In short, be specific with the maker on what you want, and why you want it.

-Cliff

 

[bandaidman]

Originally posted by Les Robertson


Whether a maker has a long back order (didn't understand what you meant by this Tom), or not. The knife should be made (as much as possible) to the customers specifications. After all isn't this what ordering a custom knife is about.

les, what i believe tom is saying is that when a maker has a long waiting list ... ie has plenty of business ...he may not want the hassle of trying to reproduce a knife that has been designed by an amatuer or that is outside his normal style or construction

many people have a vision of a knife and make a drawing ... and even when the maker reproduces it exactly as specified it may not come out as the "designer" originally intended in his mind... leading to an unhappy customer and a frustrated maker.

i have also seen knives that look good on paper ... but will be underwhelming when actually reproduced in metal ... there is a choice to be made ... modify the design or make a blade that doesn't work too well aesthetically or functionally ... i can see why a maker would not want to put his name on certain projects if he can avoid doing so. (ie he can still eat and pay the rent if he does not make that special knife for the bandaidman)

of course this does not happen every time but i suspect it happens enough to make some busy makers avoid the hassle of certain projects.

 

[Dementia]

thanks for the replies guys.

its basically echoing the thoughts that i already had ..
communication is paramount ...
only communication between the maker and the customer can prevent problems in the future ..

but i think what was really on my mind was along what, i think, Joss has touched on ..
artistry or craftsmanship.
which i know is a sometimes volitile subject of discussion.

but, we all hear about how some blades echo a face and that face is a reflection of the makers continual style.
i think my thing is that getting a maker to create you a blade ... does it come more from the price they can offer a blade to be built? .. or is it more that you have seen a previous blade of their creation .. ?
if you have seen something of their style and liked it .. how many parts of the design can you pre-determine before you wipe the face from that blade that you wanted?

basically .. after you have provided a detailed drawing of what you wanted.. doesnt it mute the reason for choosing this maker in the first place?

am i making sense?


opinions?

D.

 

[Mike Hull]

"aslo .. i know that people have come to me and asked for dimensions to the n'th degree ..
in your opinion .. where does the line fall for measurements leaving reasonable and entering into 'asking a bit much' ??
or is it a expectation that if someone comes and asks for a blade thickness of 3.123442mm .. that they really should expect to get it?"

I don't take custom orders anymore, but when I did, if a potential customer laid specs like that on me, after I got finished laughing, I would turn it down. That sort of thing is the sign of a super perfectionist, and going along somewhat with what Ed Fowler said, you can't satisfy people like that. Ever.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

Great topic!

Getting everything straight with the maker is the important thing. If you want a knife that exactly replicates one you have seen or is made precisely to your design, make sure the maker is willing to do this. Make it very clear that you do not want any variation. If the maker agrees to this then the knife you get should be exactly what you asked for.

If the maker accepts your conditions and the knife is one that is your own design and when you get it you don't like it, too bad. Don't complain and expect the maker to take it back. If the knife is not as you requested than you have every right to ask for a replacement or your money back.

Personally, I like to tell the maker the basic style I want and the materials I would like used and then leave it to the maker to come up with a knife that I will cherish. Afterall, I picked that maker because I like what I have seen of his/her work. I also believe that the maker knows more about what makes for a proper design than I do.

I do like to get a drawing of the knife so that I can see if there are any things I don't like about the knife. That way changes can be made and I can sign off on the design that I feel will work best for me.

As far as being requested to make a blade exactly 3.123442mm thick is concerned, I guess if you agree to this then it is up to you to make it exactly that thick. Personally, I think that you would probably be better of telling the customer that you don't work to such exacting specifications. Someone that would ask for something like that is probably so anal that they will measure everything with a caliper. You are probably well advised to stay as far away from this type of customer as possible.

 

[John Frankl]

I like Ed's reply specifically because it shows some people simply like to complain.

That said, as a maker, I believe makers should be up front with customers. If you don't want to, or can't, make the knife the customer wants, simply tell him/her so and kindly refer him/her to a maker who can. I can think of examples of knives I can make but don't want to (anything stainless and stock removal [not that these are not excellent, they just aren't fun for me]), and of knives I can't make (folders, for example), and of knives I both don't want to and can't make (far out fantasy pieces with no real function as a tool). In each case, I would think hard and come up with the person I thought had the best combination of ability and desire to make the knife in question, and then recommend that person.

This is not only good for the customer and the industry as a whole, but for the maker too. One disatified customer could cost you several tens of sales, so its better to let one go and keep your good name.

John