Iltis felling axe 35"

C

Cliff Stamp

BANNED
Joined
Oct 5, 1998
Messages
17,562
The handle had clear grain, no cut outs and no knots. The head of the axe was straight, no waves nor bows in the bit. The head (2.5 lbs) and handle were also perpendicular, and the end knob split the bit exactly. In short this was the best handle, head and attachment I have seen in awhile. Unfortunately the actual bit curvature was less than optimal. At first I considered returning it. The bottom of the bit swung back so deep the pattern actually resembled a trade axe. However after trying out the longer handle (35"), and lighter head weight as compared to the Hults, it stood out as so much more suitable for me personally that I decided to give it a try. The length is perfect and enables me to cut almost clear to the ground with ease. The head is also significantly lighter but the deeper profile and longer handle should make up for the inherent lack of power.

The axe has the traditional hard wood bit pattern of a deep concave hollow in the primary grind to enhance penetration and minimise wedging. This smoothly flows into a convex swell which goes right to the edge, or so I thought. I was very pleased when I saw this at first, and was wondering what Jim Aston (Jimbo) had been talking about when he noted that he had thinned the edge on his Iltis. A quick inspection revealed why, the axe had a slightly secondary bevel which was 0.035" deep, and at 35+ degrees per side. It was also fairly blunt. It could catch on a thumbnail, but could not readily do any fine cutting. The handle is also coated and fairly sticky, this is fine for the end but not for the throat which needs a light sanding and a nice refinishing in boiled linseed oil. But first the edge needed to be repaired.

I used a file mainly for the experience. After about five minutes I was seriously reconsidering this option as the edge was much too thick. If you do some searching around in old axe books you will find that about 1/2" back from the edge the bit should be at a 15-35 degree angle included depending on the type of wood and its season. The lower angle is reserved for fresh clear woods, and takes a fairly skilled user. I did some checking and some filing and decided to set the edge at about 25 degrees included mainly as that was where I was comfortable filing. Based on the type of wood mainly cut here the angle could actually be lower. It took about a half an hour to remove the secondary bevel from one side of the bit. After an hour the other side was also decently formed. I spent another fifteen minutes evening out the curvature a little, making the edges cleanly meet and cleaning up the heel and toe which were thick and uneven. The axe looked much better with a clean and uniform edge.

Just a note on this type of work, it is often of benefit to take a coarse hone and cut straight across the edge removing any sharpness before you start. This both makes it a lot safer as you are not filing into a sharp edge, but also the initial edge is usually weak anyway for reasons Jim has described in great detail before. As well it lets you know clearly when you have removed all the traces of the secondary bevel as the edges will meet clearly and you can check that easily under magnification.


By the way, if you want to see what Jim described as a true felling axe, there is a picture of one on page 163 of Lee's book on sharpening. Underneath it is the common double bit pattern that you see today which is much shorter and thicker. There is also some nice info here :

http://www.vannattabros.com/saw5.html


-Cliff
 
I don't have much time right now, but the one comment to make is that it looks like you really lucked out. Quality control of the axes I've seen is pretty spotty. I think that you'll actually enjoy reviewing that axe!
Hopefully I'll be able to get a camera and get some pics up of bevels on the GB AFA.
 
Got the handle sanded and recoated and the edge sharpened. The edge came to a fine shaving edge nicely It works similar, maybe a little easier than the GB axes. Assuming the performance is decent I intend to work on the curvature a little with each sharpening.

Jim did you get the straight handled Falling axe. Is the bit profile similar to what Cook described in the "Axe Book" by Cook?

-Cliff
 
Here are some pics of the GB American Falling Axe. I noticed that it was missing from their online products list, last time I looked.
gbafa1.jpg

gbafa2.jpg

gbafa3.jpg

gbafa4.jpg

gbafa5.jpg


I should have taken some pics alongside another axe like the Iltis, so that you can see how obtuse the bevels are on this one.
The handle is the curved - the only one that Lee Valley had - but it's still a lot straighter than most axe handles.
So it appears that with the short blade to make straighter handles possible, you have to load the weight onto the head somehow, and so the bevels..
I can put up higher res pics if anyone wants.
With the Iltis. I really did have a lot of work to do on the head I got from Lee Valley. There seem to be more head weights available than are commonly thought - and so mine is 2lb 14oz as I recall. The light cruiser I got had a 2lb 2oz head instead of 1 3/4lb. The bevels were totally out on mine - so everyone better be warned about quality control. In terms of built axes, I looked over quite a few lighter ones that I wouldn't want due to head mi-alignment, handle grain, bevels. I also notice that some companies that really promoted Iltis in Canada are now selling Wetterlings.
The wide Oxehead makes the large Iltis a softwood axe despite its profile. It has a lot in common with the old cedar axes. I've done pretty well with mine, though, on seasoned wood - and of course it'll vastly outcut the AFA shown.
 
I got to use the Iltis for about four hours on friday. It was used to take down both soft and hardwoods trees (less than an inch penetration) from about three to twelve inches in diameter. It was also used for some limbing work. The reground Hults was along for comparison. There were a huge number of differences :

1) weight - the Iltis has a much ligher head, about half the weight of the Hults, and this threw off my swing initially. I was used to a slower and heavier swing with the Hults, and plus I had not used an axe for any serious work since last fall so I was a bit rusty. It took some time before I found the optimal pace with the Iltis which was a faster, yet lighter swing. The pace is much quicker with less fatigue. This also allows it to cut much smaller wood than the Hults, even three inch saplings are not problem and limbing is much easier. Overall this makes it much more versatile.

2) handle length - the extra six inches was a problem at the start, I was used to the placement from the shorter handle on the Hults. I stopped using the Hults after using it to fell a few tress to refresh my memory of its abilties, as it was too difficult to constantly switch lengths and still be accurate. With the right swing distance the longer handle on the Iltis allowed a closer cut, more distance from the tree, and a faster head on the same speed of swing.

3) handle thickness - the Hults has a much wider handle. At first it was uncomfortable using the much more narrow Iltis handle, but this isn't surprising as the Hults was used extensively last year. I would want to use the Iltis for awhile to break in my grip before I comment on any advantages of the difference in profile. It does make the handle much lighter obviously which shifts the balance more forward.

4) head profile - the Iltis has a decent edge profile after some work as noted in the above, but the primary grind is too flat. There is a a pronounced curvature but it starts too far back. The primary grind near the edge is very machete like in that it is almost flat stock for a good distance. More of a hollow relief would promote penetration and reduce wedging.

5) edge curvature - the extreme curvature on the edge made it much more productive for many utility applications. The axe is fairly heavy (about twice the weight of a large bowie), but the large arc does give it much more skinning and in general cutting ability than the flatter profile seen on the Hults .

The heavily reground Hults does out cut it, but as noted I am more familiar with the Hults, I'll comment on this in more detail after some more work wit the Iltis. After a cord of wood or so I should have enough experience to form a decent opinion. In short though this is a very different axe, not a true felling axe in any kind of sense, more of a utility pattern .

Jim, thanks for the pictures, the overall shape is very similar to the profile Cook describes in the Axe book, but the thickness is vastly greater. I am still looking for a similar design, and a heavier double notching axe (~4-5 lbs) and a true double bit felling axe. The latter is more out of curiousity than functionality as we don't have trees of a size which warrent such axes. Historically were these ever used without saws?

DwK, how does the above compare to the bit on the GB double bit axe you have?

-Cliff
 
It sounds like you have a lot of work to do on the Iltis bevels yet! That's the story with them!
As far as I know, hand saws were used to drop trees - but once you get up the huge thickness of some trees here, it would take some strong guys to pull a saw through them. Hand saws don't operate that well on their side. Once the tree was down, hand saws would be used, and often just by one bucker. Saw cuts prevented a lot of waste compared to notching with axes.
If you are interested, I'll loan you my copy of "Now You're Logging" by Bus Griffiths. The whole story of hand logging in comic book format with a story. The artwork and technical detail are awesome.

I didn't think of it at first - but a short bitted axe has to be thick. Heavy falling axes had to be extremely long bitted just to have thin narrow bits of that weight.
 
The bevels on the Iltis are about as low as I would get them, 12-14 degrees per side. I did a little work with an angle grinder this week. If the edge was any lower I would be concerned about folding on knots, and a lot of the wood I cut tends to be riddled with them, clear wood is hard to find. I could deepen the hollow grind, and there would be significant benefit in terms of penetration and wedging, however it takes a massive amount of work to deepen a primary grind on such a scale consider the width of the head, and a lot of care as needed as well to keep the bevels even. I was thinking of extensive side cutouts also. However I think I may leave this one stock more as a reference. Plus as it is, it works ok on the softer woods and the smaller medium woods. A little extra work on the larger and harder woods isn't going to kill me.

With regard to the saw, I can't see how those longer double bit felling axes were used without a saw. The descriptions I have read indicated they do bind badly on their own, which I would expect given the profile. However if the undercut is made with a saw, then wood flies out in huge chunks and then those very slender double bits would fly through the tree. Last fall I spent some time using a saw for felling and the difference it makes is staggering. Trees which would difficult to cut through are made very easy. Axes sink to much greater depths and do not wedge at all. The only problem is that you have to be careful of glances as the axes can clear so much material and they are so free in th wood.

In regards to the profiles, the double bit felling axes had fairly flat/convex grinds, little hollow to them from the ones that I have seen (only in pictures), I am not sure why this is so, but yes it means that they needed to be very long to get a slim taper. Maybe if a large hollow was used they would bind too badly. However axes like the GB falling axe which have large hollow grinds can have very thin profiles just by using a very deep hollow.

http://oldjimbo.com/pics/gbafa5.jpg

shows an almost pefect profile except the curvature of the relief is too shallow. Of course maybe it is intended for the softer class of woods and needs the thicker profile for breaking the chips, or as you noted is more of a utility class axe and splitting is an intended use.

Did you have any luck with Valiant and axes. I recall you discussing it awhile ago. It would be nice to have a decent few felling axes without going custom and having the prices be hundreds of dollar.

-Cliff
 
I got to use the axe on Saturday and Sunday, I was out for about five hours each day, but little of it was axe use. I felled about one tree every twenty minutes. Mainly my time was spent cleaning up the wood felled but not limbed from last year so all that had to be cleaned up and stacked. Most of it was blasty wood which is very difficult to cut. It cracks and leaves sharp edges which tear you up at any contact, it is almost as bad as working with glass. It is so hard that the edge on the Becker Bowie saw repeated fractures during the limbing, and the edge angle is decently robust (15-17 degrees). I was also used a Tramontina Bolo when the limbs were too thick for the Bowie to handle and it rippled in two to three places a day making a refiling necessary.

Anyway, I had done some work on the Iltis with the angle grinder, enough to go through 4L of water for cooling. Not a lot, in fact I measured the edge angle before and after and the difference was smaller than the variability in the measurements, it was still at about 13.5 degrees. Mainly it was to increase the shoulder width which should make for a smoother cut. Using the axe I did notice a huge increase in this area. The Iltis went into the wood deeper and more was fluid, but I also slowed down this time, and was more focused on body position and getting the swing up to speed and along a smooth and repeatable path. I should have done all of this last week, but was in a hurry to try out a new axe, never a sensible path to take. As well since I was felling only every once in awhile instead of a long continuous path I didn't get the buildup of shocks that I got last week which my hands were not used to after the winter lay off.

In addition to this I mainly stuck to clear wood and selected the smaller and softer trees. Last week I jumped right in a cut a few of the hardest and largest trees in the lot. Again not a real sensible thing to do with an axe when you are just building experience. In short, overall my perception of the axe is very different this week than the last. Now I feel much better with it and no longer desire to bring the Hults along. This should improve as I get more experience, but at least half of the trees cuts this weekend went down with clean lines as opposed to none last weekend, many of which took more than double what they should have.

The edge did take two small ripples, about 0.015 and 0.025" deep at maximum, this was on Sunday and was only noticed after a bad glance on the worse piece of wood cut the weekend.. These were easily hammered back into place (go light and use a lot of hits), and then the edge was filed back a bit to remove the worse of the weakened metal. The steel does work significantly easier than the Hults, so I wonder if the performance could be raised if the HRC was pushed up, this could however cause the edge to fracture which would of course be much worse. The edge again was easily raised to a shaving sharp finish in preparation for next weeks cutting.

Next weekend should be the last I need to do cleanup on the older wood, so more dedicated felling trips will take place in the next sessions. If the edge continues to ripple I might have to put a dedicated secondary bevel of about 15-17 degrees along the lip. I still feel that a 3.5 lbs head would be more functional for the harder woods, but this axe is coming along, and we don't have enough of the larger spruce to really make this a problem. Plus a challenge every now and then is ok.

In short, this is the best felling axe I have seen NIB, and requires very little work to get it to optimal performance. I would strongly recommend though to note Jim's comments on the QC, if you could inspect these first hand it would be ideal .

-Cliff
 
I got to try the Iltis out again on friday evening, dropped about a dozen small trees (4-8") with no problems. The nest one however caused a large chip to break out of the edge. The chip was 0.010" thick at the back and almost a half an inch long (just over 0.4"). This was roughly in the middle of the bit, the edge folded over a knot, clean hit this time.

A secondary bevel was applied to the edge, I intended about 15-16 degrees, but was a little off and got 17-18 instead. The bevel is about 0.035" thick at back and hopefully this will raise the strength enough to deal with the harder woods. The steel is much softer than was is in the Hults head, it files much easier and raises a very heavy burr.

The burr that was formed while creating the secondary bevel was so wide that I didn't even realize that it was a burr. It approached 2 mm in width. It also would not come off with filing, and it had to be broke off with a piece of dowel. As the edge was further refined with waterstones, wispy remains of the initial large burr would break away from the edge. Sharpening was continued until the edge held fast and took a fine and crips polish.

-Cliff
 
I did some work with the big GB today - but I didn't get to compare directly to the Iltis as I had lots to carry, and wanted to take out the small forest axe too.. The AFA worked extremely well on a variety of seasoned and soft wood - enough to surprise me. The balance and accuracy make up for the steeper bevel.
I'm still of the opinion that the biggest problem with describing the Iltis is the QC. Hults too, have moved into the $35 CAN axe market, and so their QC on hardness is all over the place. I got pretty lucky with the steel in both of my Iltis axes - but I still have a pile of work to do with the larger one to get the bevels set up properly. I'd hate to bet on which of a new Iltis and a new Hults had better hardness...

I had asked Wandi about the possibility of making hatchet heads - with the thin bladed, long handled light hatchet in mind. He sent me a typical long handled Indonesian hatchet which is quite tomahawk-like but works well. Thinned down it would serve as a good model for a "Neolyth axe". Other than for a specialized hatchet, where there isn't any competition, I don't think it would be worth his time to get into axe heads. Enough good stuff comes up on ebay at reasonable prices to keep the few of us who are interested in heavier axes - in axe heads for life. It'd be pretty tough to compete with GB, as well.
Have you seen this Iltis?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3221957928&category=4123
A close look at the grind on it shows work to be done...
 
I would hope that the Iltis I have is the softest they run. QC is a real problem now with axes, if at all possible you want to buy them on hand from a place with a good return policy.

I got to use the Iltis on sunday through a dozen or so small sticks. I could not notice a difference in cutting ability and there was no damage to the edge, but the wood was soft and the hits clean. I would want to do a lot more work before I signed off on it. The axe is still getting smoother in hand as well.

The Helco bits are really thick, from the cross section shots I have seen. That is the real problem with ebay axes, every auction you have to check for a top down shot, and only about one in three that I have asked for send them. All so far have been horribly thick.

The high priced competition axes don't interest me for working tools as they are too brittle - they are usually cast stainless. Plus for that price I could easily get a custom forged head.

-Cliff
 
I didn't know that competition axes were stainless. Is there a good reason for that?
 
I heard it on tv during one of the STIHL series competitions and was so surprised I didn't believe what I heard. It did make sense though considering some of axe damage I have see during the competitions. Now of course these edges are ran pushed to the geometry limit, but even then, the damage that happens on occasion really surprised me until I heard the heads were stainless, but being cast is bad enough.

Axe heads would ideally be made out of S5 or something similar. A steel which is designed for maximal impact toughness at a high hardness (58+ RC). The head should be differentially tempered so reduce and absorb shock with only the very edge of the bit hardened. The rest can be left much softer than a utility axe as long as you realize never to pound on or with the poll.

-Cliff
 
I'm still having trouble comprehending why competition axe makers would go that route..
 
We had pretty much steady rain on the weekend so I only got to use the Iltis for a few small trees. Performance is still going up as I become more familiar with the axe. No problems with the edge bevel.

Stainless steels are actually thought of to be superior to "non-stainless" steels. It is common in cutlery to use stainless steels for swords, machetes, large knives and even hatchets / axes. There is a common misconception that such steels are "tough", often determined by the fact that they are difficult to grind.

Stainless steels make nice light hunting knives, fillet blades and kitchen knives. I would not use them on anything else. If I really needed a high level of corrosion resistance I would go with a Ti alloy like Mission uses as that is far tougher than the common stainless steels.

-Cliff
 
I can't believe that either.

There has got to be some potential for an enterprising bladesmith in that particular field...
 
The casting is probably done because of the strict requirements on the tolerances, no room for handmade variation. I have never seen an explaination for the choice of steels, but as noted in the above it is very popular in the tactical / heavy use knife market.

The Iltis was used for most of the weekend with the new heavier secondary bevel, including some very hard to cut knots. About a cord of wood has been cut with the modified profile in total, no problems have been seen and I am fairly confident that the durability is high enough. Some cuts were made intentionally fairly sloppy, so in fact the durability is probably excessive.

Of course type of wood, personal power and skill also play a role so some experimention is key.

-Cliff
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top