Karambit vs Desperado

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xxo33

Joined
Jan 17, 2002
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Ernest Emerson makes Karambits and has a video out showing how to fight with one:

Combat Karambits Level 4 Knife Boxing

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Lynn Thompson wrote a critical article about the Karambit in the Special Projects catalog:

The Karambit It Ain’t All That


I’m wondering how the Karambit compares to the Cold Steel Desperado as a fighting knife.


Has anyone trained with both the Karambit and the Desperado?


What's your opinion?




:)
 
The desperado will be more verstatile and have more reach.

The kerambit is probably legal to carry everywhere as the blade is short, single edged and can be interpreted as a utility blade.

The legal kerambit will be a better EDC due to the legal issue.
 
Originally posted by Sundsvall
The desperado will be more verstatile and have more reach.
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I think the opposite holds true...the karambit has a lot of reach in the extended position (see below) and the fact that you can spin it allows you to do two cuts with every sweep (see video by Steve Tarani)...there are multiple ways of attacking with a karamit...it's also harder to disarm a karambit...karambits have been around for decades (if not hundreds of years) and there is A LOT of technique behind them.

I own two karambits and the Desperado...I have already expressed my concerns about the quality of the Desperado so I won't do that here...all I can say is that I would rather carry a karambit.

RL

Strider fixed blade karambit in extended position.

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I gotta vote for the desperado.
I love that Lynn came out and said what I've been thinking for a while. Is the Kerambit a vicious weapon? Sure it's one nasty freaking claw I'll give you that but my arguements are still AGAINST the range and versatility. I think that the extended position with a Kerambit would falter if you farted on it. I think you have almost zero range with it and while A kerambit would be great at Extreme close ranges I would much rather have a bowie. And while I'm at it: WHAT VERSATILITY? Forward and Reverse grip? Holy crap I can do that with my kitchen knife too. I also think that while the bandwagon is rolling along I will be in a very small minority here. Hey, buy 'em carry 'em use 'em what ever floats your boat.
You like them, Hey that's great. I'll agree that they're cool but I'm not going to carry one.

Hasta la bye-bye!
 
Originally posted by Chambers
I WHAT VERSATILITY? Forward and Reverse grip? Holy crap I can do that with my kitchen knife too.
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actually, it is more than forward and reverse grip...Tarani demonstrates at least five different cuts that you can do in each of forwad and reverse grip (with a double edge karambit)...also, as I mentioned, the spinning allows at least two cuts per every pass (not possible with a kitchen knife).

Unfortunately, the link above to Lynn's article doesn't work for me..I would love to read his article...I am not surprised that Lynn does not like karambits as he usually advocates big knives and putting a lot of distance between yourself and your opponent (the opposite of what many other instructors advocate).

RL
 
Originally posted by RL
actually, it is more than forward and reverse grip...Tarani demonstrates at least five different cuts that you can do in each of forwad and reverse grip (with a double edge karambit)...also, as I mentioned, the spinning allows at least two cuts per every pass (not possible with a kitchen knife).

Unfortunately, the link above to Lynn's article doesn't work for me..I would love to read his article...I am not surprised that Lynn does not like karambits as he usually advocates big knives and putting a lot of distance between yourself and your opponent (the opposite of what many other instructors advocate).

RL
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The karambit can cut you in the extended position, but it won't have the leverage of the Desparado at the same distance. Simply put, your one finger grip buttressed by the thumb is no match for the full palm grip of the eggy desparado handle.

Secondly, the multiple cut pass by the karambit will produce 2 superficial cuts followed by a deep powerful stroke. Also, if the target happens to move back back out of range the flippy motion will be wasted.

Obviously a fighting system that incorporates footwork will be needed to to fully capitalize on the the karambit itself.

I would rather have the full belly of the Desparado if I had to choose between the two. If I had the karambit, I am sure I could make it work for me as well.

If portability, concealability and build quality was on top of the list of priorities, the karambit would be the choice.

Otherwise, IMO the Desparado is a better bet for shear destructive force.
 
Now if Lynn Thompson would make the Desperado with some real steel instead of the the 420 stainless and use kydex instead of the lightweight plastic for the sheath, I might actually buy one.
 
I would not dismiss the Kerambit's so fast. There are some damages that can only be done by the Kerambit.

From the look of the Desperado, the best way to inflict damage is by 'slicing'. You have to make sure that you slice the opponent deep enough. Of course there's stabbing too.

However, with kerambit, you 'stab' and 'cut' the enemy. One swinging movement means a stab and a cut at the same time. For example, find a wide box. Try to cut it with the desperado. It really difficult to inflict deep wound. But with the kerambit, the edge first will puncture the box, and the deep cut will follow. BTW, plain edge cannot be compared to serrated edge, and there are serrated kerambit.

It's just from my opinion. I never had to fight using a kerambit, so I really don't know how effective it is. But, the wicked look will certainly drop the enemy morale. That's all that matters for me.

I choose Keramit over the Desperado.

If you guys disagree, feel free. After all, it's just about taste.
 
I wish Lynn would lose the serrations on all his "Nogales clip point" knives. And the current Desperado is 420 'subzero quench'. I'm not impressed. At least the folding Vaqueros are still 8A.

Considering the impact potential of the Desperado, he could justify Carbon V or some other high-carbon steel without sacrificing price too badly. Who cares how cheap a knife is if it's too shoddy to do the job?

My Vaquero Grande is a great working knife and you wouldn't want to be in line of a stab from it, either. But the serrations are a negative. I'd rather have a good working edge, even 40 degrees, on that great flat grind.
 
Kerambits. Specialized. I'm not a knife fighter. I haven't got the mobility.

Why is it that some designers who should know better make a blade that folds into the finger hole? An accident that's planned to happen? Why are some finger holes too small for my fingers???

But some of them are beautiful! :D I even saw a cheapie this weekend that was almost perfect. I love the Warren Thomas folding model. I want the Spyderco version coming out in steel instead of Ti.

I do agree that any equipment or technique that teaches you something else about your abilities or potential is a good thing. So the kerambit isn't for everybody. Neither are firearms. Use what you're comfortable with.

In a New York City subway, it's all "up close and personal" anyway :p
 
Originally posted by beluga
I never had to fight using a kerambit, so I really don't know how effective it is. But, the wicked look will certainly drop the enemy morale.
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I think the best weapon is the one he never sees till he's sliced. :D

With anything as small as a kerambit, the EKI version is best: Wave it open and cut. Fight over. Leave.

If it's a brawl, out in the open, you need a quarterstaff, not a utility blade.
 
OH, I so love these minor disagreements over which is better! I guess this hype really helps sales.

This is like asking which is the better car for racing on dirt, a sprint car or a rally car? Both go on dirt, both have tons of horsepower, but they do differnt things. One races in circles, the other races on dirt roads. Both great cars for their intended purpose. Both need skill to operate effectively.

Same with karambit or Desparado. Two different techniques involved. Both require skill to use effectively.

Personal observation on the Desaparado, egg shaped handle sucks. Rotates too easily. That's why I got rid of mine.

I don't mind the "cheap" steel in a purely self defense knife. I'd rather have the better steel, but 420 will get the job done. Besides, its more about the blade shape, proper grind and edge geometry.
 
Well, I usaully only post in the Bali Forum nowadays, but here's my two cents.

When I see knives from Emerson or CS the first thing I think of is HYPE.


I don't think either makes knife that are as tough as they say.


Cold Steel make some good knives at the higher end (good but not necessarily as great as they say) Their cheaper stuff is pure junk.

Emerson knives are overpriced for what they are. I've heard too many complaints about quality control, and liner lock failure.

Making a Karambit into a folder makes it heavy, and potentially prone to closure.

Given the choice between the two I'd take NEITHER. The Dsperado
screams cheap and nasty, and the Emerson is overpriced with slightly suspect QC.
 
They used to make the Desperado in AUS-8A, but I was the only guy who bought it, I guess. So 420 sub-zero is the punishment for the latecomers. Also, owning some plain-edged Voyager clip points in AUS-8A and once owning a plain-edged El Lobo in the same steel (now rechristened "Vaquero Medium"), I'm a bigger fan of serrations for that steel when Cold Steel gets it and love the added oomph the serrations add to non-delicate slicing. But that's as a yardwork knife. My martial arts training has convinced me that I'm not a fighter by any means or talent. :)
 
Sounds like someone feels a little threatened by the popularity of a knife that he doesn't produce...
 
I still think he's avoiding the bandwagon. I noticed Spyderco was pretty freaking quick to hop up there.







ooooh don't I know I'm going to catch hell for that one.
The way I see it is Tirani started the fad (yes fad) Emerson quickly followed suit and then a handfull of others decided to pump out their own version to make sure to cash in on it.
I'm not impressed, I'm not going to be impressed. You like your things I'm happy with mine.
No sence in getting all pissy about it.
 
I think kerambits have been around a sufficient duration of time to not be considered a "fad". You know, a few hundred years.

Remember that there are actually knives made outside of those appearing in Blade magazine.
 
First of all, we are talking about two distinctly different styles of knife here. Both defensive knives, but very different.
The Desperado is cool, I wish the blade was just a little shorter, not serrated and at least partially double edged. I wish it was still in decent steel (not that 420 wont hurt someone, but.. yeah..) and with a real kydex/concealex sheath not this molded crap. Sheath needs Blade-Tech type IWB loop, and Tec-Lok attachments for versatile carry positions, horizontal cross draw, strong side draw, etc. etc.
Its a thrusting weapon, you'll do better thrusting with it than cutting. It does allow versatile grips, and with comfort. Also, it gets around push-dagger laws because its not a t-handle, its just a "palm-knife", that happens to be able to be held like a push dagger.

A karambit, B.S. and hype aside has two things really going for it, Retention and a hook blade.
I am a Pikal(Edge In reverse grip) kind of guy, say what you want about that, I like it, its nasty, it works for me, quite well. BUT, if I have to use an edge-out blade, I want it to be a hawkbill. It hits point first, stabbing of sorts, going deep in and THEN cutting, make a deep wide wound, unlike a knife with "belly", which can hit and just sort of skate along never bite in as deep. So, if you gotta do edge-out, I figure a hawkbill is as good as it gets.
Now, you've got the finger-ring. Hands covered in sweat, blood, fluid from the bowels and stomach, etc. etc. That ring, as long as your finger is in that ring, your hand is going no-where. You have retention up to wahzoo, but you can also let go of it real fast if you have to (not sure why you would want to though).
Screw extended position, thats fcked up. Also, if you carry both fixed (double edged) and folding (single edged by nature) karambits, it breeds bad habits and int he heat of a fight you might smack someone with the spine, and have your folder close up on you.
Now, I do like "hammer fist" type chopping with the back edge of a double edged kerambit, its a natural motion, and its like taking an ulu to someone I'm sure. But, I wouldnt want to do it witht he un-sharpened spine of a folder (or even the spine of a double edged folder).
So, realistically, sensibly, what is a kerambit? Its a hawkbill fighter, with above-par retention.

Now it comes down to, how do you fight, and which features from which knife are more important to you, which one fits your carry profile better, which one can you use better, and so on and so forth.
 
Originally posted by satin
The Desperado is cool, I wish the blade was just a little shorter, not serrated and at least partially double edged. I wish it was still in decent steel (not that 420 wont hurt someone, but.. yeah..) and with a real kydex/concealex sheath not this molded crap. Sheath needs Blade-Tech type IWB loop, and Tec-Lok attachments for versatile carry positions, horizontal cross draw, strong side draw, etc. etc.
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Yeah the Desperado deserves an upgrade, a better sheath, better steel, plus CARBON steel and PLAIN edge options are in order.




Its a thrusting weapon, you'll do better thrusting with it than cutting.
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Yeah but the recurve shape and the big fat belly make it a slasher too.







;)
 
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