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Knife Show Prices vs. Custom Knife Dealer Prices
- Thread starter MAURICE
- Start date
- Joined
- Nov 6, 1999
- Messages
- 2,639
For the most part, the prices the maker will charge, and the price a dealer sells at are very similar. Dealers rely on discounts from makers to make a profit. Generally this works to the makers advantage if the dealer is ordering many knives (the old 'volume' discount). Most of the reputable custom knife dealers sell knives at or near the makers own price.
However, you may find a maker willing to reduce his asking price on some knives at a show, particularly near closing time. Sometimes makers will offer a tremendous discount for long time customers, or folks that truly appreciate their work, and will carry and use the knife. If they think you are only interested in resale value, you will pay full price.
One last thing, I never haggle at shows. The knife is either worth the marked price, or not. There is no such thing as wholesale or discount pricing in custom knives. If a maker gives you a price break, he is charging you less money for his time.
Enjoy the show. I wish I could be there
Paracelsus
However, you may find a maker willing to reduce his asking price on some knives at a show, particularly near closing time. Sometimes makers will offer a tremendous discount for long time customers, or folks that truly appreciate their work, and will carry and use the knife. If they think you are only interested in resale value, you will pay full price.
One last thing, I never haggle at shows. The knife is either worth the marked price, or not. There is no such thing as wholesale or discount pricing in custom knives. If a maker gives you a price break, he is charging you less money for his time.
Enjoy the show. I wish I could be there
Paracelsus
Les Robertson
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 10, 1998
- Messages
- 3,565
Interesting question Maurice.
Not all dealers sell at retail price. The more popular makers generally are only working with 2 or 3 dealers at most.
If you a year or two behind it doesn't make much sense to be working with 5 or more dealers.
Consequently, many dealers have to pay full price to get the more popular knives. So these individuals are not selling at retail.
I recommend to the makers I work with to not haggle on price. Espeically if it is a known model. If a maker sells it below retail, you can bet the world will hear about it.
Wouldn't you just love to read on the Internet about some guy who walked into a show and bought the same knife you waited 9 months for and he got it cheaper! Probably makes you want to run out and order 10 more knives from that maker.
When a maker does that to their own work, it is because they do not belive in their work or themselves. It is at that point you should divest yourself of that makers work. If he did it once he will doe it again. Every time the maker does that he dilutes your knife in the after market.
When I was in Graduate School, the Saturn car company started announcing their no haggle pricing. The priced the car fairly and that was it.
I thought that was a great concept. As some of those who came by my table were idiots. They would offer 50% of retail or want 1 free if they bought three, crap like that.
So I adopted Saturns policy. At every show all my knives are marked with a price and that is the price. Having done this for 7 years now, I very seldom if ever get someone who wants to "haggle" with me.
As a general rule dealers who haggle on price have one of two things going on.
The knife is overpriced to begin with or the knife is a slow mover and they want to get rid of it.
I mean who would reduce the price on a knife that is a good seller? Think about it.
There are of course exceptions, someone buys 5 knives or he is your best customer and you give him a deal on one knife.
For the most part, professional knife makers and custom knife dealers do not haggle. With the advent of the Internet, if it doesn't sell at a show, take it home and put it on the 24/7 knife show.
With the Internet responsible for 85% of my sales, knife shows have turned into more a social affair. That doesn't mean I don't sell a lot of knives at shows. It just means that my days of haggling are in the past.
Next time you are at a show and you want to haggle with a maker or dealer ask yourself why they are offering you a deal on this knife. The maker or dealer may know something you don't.
It is up to you to do your homework and know what are the retail prices of knives. If you wan't to pay over retail then that is your right. At least you will know you are.
Nothing worse than buying a knife and finding out you paid $200 over retail. Now what are the odds you are going to get your money back out of that knife.
By the way, when working with dealers one of your questions should be, "what is your trade in policy on this knife". If they won't stand behind the knife, it's probably a knife you don't want, no matter how great the price is.
The better the deal the better the chance the knife is a DOG!
------------------
Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
Not all dealers sell at retail price. The more popular makers generally are only working with 2 or 3 dealers at most.
If you a year or two behind it doesn't make much sense to be working with 5 or more dealers.
Consequently, many dealers have to pay full price to get the more popular knives. So these individuals are not selling at retail.
I recommend to the makers I work with to not haggle on price. Espeically if it is a known model. If a maker sells it below retail, you can bet the world will hear about it.
Wouldn't you just love to read on the Internet about some guy who walked into a show and bought the same knife you waited 9 months for and he got it cheaper! Probably makes you want to run out and order 10 more knives from that maker.
When a maker does that to their own work, it is because they do not belive in their work or themselves. It is at that point you should divest yourself of that makers work. If he did it once he will doe it again. Every time the maker does that he dilutes your knife in the after market.
When I was in Graduate School, the Saturn car company started announcing their no haggle pricing. The priced the car fairly and that was it.
I thought that was a great concept. As some of those who came by my table were idiots. They would offer 50% of retail or want 1 free if they bought three, crap like that.
So I adopted Saturns policy. At every show all my knives are marked with a price and that is the price. Having done this for 7 years now, I very seldom if ever get someone who wants to "haggle" with me.
As a general rule dealers who haggle on price have one of two things going on.
The knife is overpriced to begin with or the knife is a slow mover and they want to get rid of it.
I mean who would reduce the price on a knife that is a good seller? Think about it.
There are of course exceptions, someone buys 5 knives or he is your best customer and you give him a deal on one knife.
For the most part, professional knife makers and custom knife dealers do not haggle. With the advent of the Internet, if it doesn't sell at a show, take it home and put it on the 24/7 knife show.
With the Internet responsible for 85% of my sales, knife shows have turned into more a social affair. That doesn't mean I don't sell a lot of knives at shows. It just means that my days of haggling are in the past.
Next time you are at a show and you want to haggle with a maker or dealer ask yourself why they are offering you a deal on this knife. The maker or dealer may know something you don't.
It is up to you to do your homework and know what are the retail prices of knives. If you wan't to pay over retail then that is your right. At least you will know you are.
Nothing worse than buying a knife and finding out you paid $200 over retail. Now what are the odds you are going to get your money back out of that knife.
By the way, when working with dealers one of your questions should be, "what is your trade in policy on this knife". If they won't stand behind the knife, it's probably a knife you don't want, no matter how great the price is.
The better the deal the better the chance the knife is a DOG!
------------------
Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
- Joined
- Aug 1, 1999
- Messages
- 3,036
Les, the world is not the simple black and white you sometimes paint it. There is the issue of cash flow. If you have lots of cash you can afford to sit on knives until they sell at the asking price. If you don't, you sometimes need to let a knife go below its true value. It has nothing to do with anything other than the need to support a family.
The knife-buying public might want think about this. Many knifemakers do this for a living. Knives are our only source of income and none of us get rich (at least not in the material sense). If you want to beat a maker down at the end of a show to get something at the lowest possible price, think about whose money you are negotiating with, yours or his.
------------------
Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
The Tom & Jerry Show
The knife-buying public might want think about this. Many knifemakers do this for a living. Knives are our only source of income and none of us get rich (at least not in the material sense). If you want to beat a maker down at the end of a show to get something at the lowest possible price, think about whose money you are negotiating with, yours or his.
------------------
Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
The Tom & Jerry Show
wyrm
Gold Member
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2001
- Messages
- 730
If you are lucky, you may not have to haggle to get a deal.
At a recent show in Canada, I was visiting a table of well-known maker(I won't say who) very early in the show. I asked if I could pick up a knife (just like you guys said I should), and he began to tell me about the steel, handles etc. At this time I noticed a scratch on the blade, one second before he pointed it out. He said he had packed the knife without inspecting it and had noticed the 'flaw' in the finish that morning. He said he was a little embarassed to have brought a knife that wasn't up to his normal standards. He said $$$$, I said USD or CDN, he said CDN and I couldn't open my wallet fast enough. I knew I had a deal, but I didn't realize until I checked his website that I got what amounted to a 55% discount off the list price. Just because of a slight blemish! Right time, right place.
------------------
Dale C. Tipert aka 'wyrm'
Learn. Apply. Share.
Visit Canadian Knifemakers Guild
At a recent show in Canada, I was visiting a table of well-known maker(I won't say who) very early in the show. I asked if I could pick up a knife (just like you guys said I should), and he began to tell me about the steel, handles etc. At this time I noticed a scratch on the blade, one second before he pointed it out. He said he had packed the knife without inspecting it and had noticed the 'flaw' in the finish that morning. He said he was a little embarassed to have brought a knife that wasn't up to his normal standards. He said $$$$, I said USD or CDN, he said CDN and I couldn't open my wallet fast enough. I knew I had a deal, but I didn't realize until I checked his website that I got what amounted to a 55% discount off the list price. Just because of a slight blemish! Right time, right place.
------------------
Dale C. Tipert aka 'wyrm'
Learn. Apply. Share.
Visit Canadian Knifemakers Guild
RHINOKNIVES
Gold Member
- Joined
- May 6, 2000
- Messages
- 6,124
very true comments both les and jerry,i puposely display at high end craft shows for my culinary knives to avoid grinders(price)but there are some times you need to pay the rent LOL.
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Laurence Segal www.RHINOKNIVES.com
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Laurence Segal www.RHINOKNIVES.com
Les Robertson
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 10, 1998
- Messages
- 3,565
Hi Jerry,
I have been selling custom knives full time for just over 6 years now. Yes, this is my only source of income.
I am only to familiar with Cash Flow.
Jerry, as a maker it is your perogative to sell the knife for what ever you want. But do not be fooled. Word of "Discounts" gets around. Soon everyone will expect one.
Some time it is tough to say no, the price is as marked. I know for the long run this has helped me. As I get very few hagglers. This, as you can imagine with a dealer is very unusual.
If cash flow is a little tight. Complete a knife that is an order and take that to the show. If it doesn't sell there, you box it up and ship it out on Monday. Either way you get paid for the knife. Just this way you didn't discount it.
As you pointed out, the customer is haggling with "your" money not his.
------------------
Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
I have been selling custom knives full time for just over 6 years now. Yes, this is my only source of income.
I am only to familiar with Cash Flow.
Jerry, as a maker it is your perogative to sell the knife for what ever you want. But do not be fooled. Word of "Discounts" gets around. Soon everyone will expect one.
Some time it is tough to say no, the price is as marked. I know for the long run this has helped me. As I get very few hagglers. This, as you can imagine with a dealer is very unusual.
If cash flow is a little tight. Complete a knife that is an order and take that to the show. If it doesn't sell there, you box it up and ship it out on Monday. Either way you get paid for the knife. Just this way you didn't discount it.
As you pointed out, the customer is haggling with "your" money not his.
------------------
Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
- Joined
- Aug 1, 1999
- Messages
- 3,036
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2000
- Messages
- 47
I always understood that sales performance on any item was a factor of value vs.. cost to the buyer.
At the level the buyer perceives value in an item to exceed the cost by 1 cent, then price is set. The opposite affects sales in the reverse.
I think the issue with most makers is that they're not very experienced at selling, as I've watched them personally and most of them are sub-par to say it mildly. Unless you understand that holding a price in negotiation has an affect on the perceived value in the buyer's mind, then you'll leave money on the table every time (which means you're also agreeing with the buyer that your item's value is less than you thought).
In most of the knife sales I've seen, we're only talking a hundred or so dollars being negotiated ... or being tried. Many times, it's less than a hundred ... which is worse! First of all, everything being negotiated is directly out of profit ... however, if a maker can't hold a couple of hundred dollars in a sale on an item that they know the value of personally better than any other person on earth, they're just "flat weak" salesmen! Anything under $500 is all salesmanship skill. It has almost nothing to do with true value ... How can anyone say that +/- $500 on a one-of-a-kind item (assuming a certain level of quality, of course) is "real" value being set? The fact is, you can't! Neither can the buyer.
Don't underestimate the process of building value in sales! If you find yourself continually selling short, then your "value building" skills are weak! If you need a purveyor to help you, because most of them are experienced and much better salesmen, drop your pride and get one ... the one who sells with the best skill, in fact. The best purveyors are the ones to buy from too, if you're a collector! Their knives will never have weak market value ... they build market value!
Of course, "selling" is a technical exercise ... it has nothing to do with simply "wagging your lip", like most people think. And, read all the books about it that you want ... you won't find it there, either.
If a man asks you the price of your knife, and you immediately answer him, learn how to sell ... or, find a great dealer to work through as they'll handle it for you ... or, learn how to shop with coupons ... you'll need them as you go through life!
Alex Whetsell
Atlantavirtual.com
At the level the buyer perceives value in an item to exceed the cost by 1 cent, then price is set. The opposite affects sales in the reverse.
I think the issue with most makers is that they're not very experienced at selling, as I've watched them personally and most of them are sub-par to say it mildly. Unless you understand that holding a price in negotiation has an affect on the perceived value in the buyer's mind, then you'll leave money on the table every time (which means you're also agreeing with the buyer that your item's value is less than you thought).
In most of the knife sales I've seen, we're only talking a hundred or so dollars being negotiated ... or being tried. Many times, it's less than a hundred ... which is worse! First of all, everything being negotiated is directly out of profit ... however, if a maker can't hold a couple of hundred dollars in a sale on an item that they know the value of personally better than any other person on earth, they're just "flat weak" salesmen! Anything under $500 is all salesmanship skill. It has almost nothing to do with true value ... How can anyone say that +/- $500 on a one-of-a-kind item (assuming a certain level of quality, of course) is "real" value being set? The fact is, you can't! Neither can the buyer.
Don't underestimate the process of building value in sales! If you find yourself continually selling short, then your "value building" skills are weak! If you need a purveyor to help you, because most of them are experienced and much better salesmen, drop your pride and get one ... the one who sells with the best skill, in fact. The best purveyors are the ones to buy from too, if you're a collector! Their knives will never have weak market value ... they build market value!
Of course, "selling" is a technical exercise ... it has nothing to do with simply "wagging your lip", like most people think. And, read all the books about it that you want ... you won't find it there, either.
If a man asks you the price of your knife, and you immediately answer him, learn how to sell ... or, find a great dealer to work through as they'll handle it for you ... or, learn how to shop with coupons ... you'll need them as you go through life!
Alex Whetsell
Atlantavirtual.com
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2000
- Messages
- 2,468
I'm curious what the standard markup is to dealers from custom makers. Is it 100% as in the rest of the craft world? In other words, I make the knife and sell it to Les for $200 who then marks it up to $400. Or do dealers take knives on consignment so that the maker is getting 60% or more?
Are the numbers for factory knives the same?
------------------
Peter Atwood
email: fountainman@hotmail.com
Are the numbers for factory knives the same?
------------------
Peter Atwood
email: fountainman@hotmail.com
Les Robertson
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 10, 1998
- Messages
- 3,565
Hi Jerry,
Yes, I am married with two daughters. Jerry, one word for you ....Incorporation!
Peter,
No, there is no 100% mark up in custom knives. Now that is not to say that some dealers would not mark up unusual and hard to find knives 100% over what they buy them for. But that is a very rare occurance.
Makers discounts do dealers range from 0-30% with 20-25% being the norm. This is generally given to dealers who have a long term relationship with the maker.
Better known dealers get a bigger discount than lesser known dealers. Many makers view this as part of their marketing budget.
Im glad you asked this question, as this is a common mistake made by a lot of people. I get 2-5 requests from "dealers" for my "Wholesale" catalog. You can always tell the factory people
To do this as a full time profession, whether you are a maker or dealer. You have to be able to manage time, costs and cash flow very well.
Makers have the advantage that they make the knives.
Dealers have the advantage that they can work with several dealers.
One of the things I like best about selling custom knives is that every day is different.
------------------
Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
Yes, I am married with two daughters. Jerry, one word for you ....Incorporation!
Peter,
No, there is no 100% mark up in custom knives. Now that is not to say that some dealers would not mark up unusual and hard to find knives 100% over what they buy them for. But that is a very rare occurance.
Makers discounts do dealers range from 0-30% with 20-25% being the norm. This is generally given to dealers who have a long term relationship with the maker.
Better known dealers get a bigger discount than lesser known dealers. Many makers view this as part of their marketing budget.
Im glad you asked this question, as this is a common mistake made by a lot of people. I get 2-5 requests from "dealers" for my "Wholesale" catalog. You can always tell the factory people
To do this as a full time profession, whether you are a maker or dealer. You have to be able to manage time, costs and cash flow very well.
Makers have the advantage that they make the knives.
Dealers have the advantage that they can work with several dealers.
One of the things I like best about selling custom knives is that every day is different.
------------------
Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2001
- Messages
- 4,399
Not from me!
The discount "problem" is mindset - I think we're too accustomed to having the "asking" price of an item inflated so that there is room to negotiate a "selling" price. I too wish that the Saturn 'No Haggling" pricing policy were universal - as a seller and as a buyer. When I'm considering selling a high-end wristwatch from my collection and I run my "asking" price (which is what I want for the watch) by a dealer friend, the answer is always - ALWAYS - the same: "No, ask for $500 higher so you can come down."
We all like to believe we got a "deal".
------------------
Holger :c{{{<
AKTI Member No: A001324
CKG-F
-----------------------
www.cockroachfarm.com
larry harley
BANNED
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- Mar 19, 1999
- Messages
- 516
i think DEALERS r a plight on the industrey
the make nothing like blood suckers they live off of others work
if u want a knife go to the maker
harley
www,lonesomepineknives.com
the make nothing like blood suckers they live off of others work
if u want a knife go to the maker
harley
www,lonesomepineknives.com
- Joined
- May 13, 1999
- Messages
- 1,926
Whoo Hoo! Harley's here! You tell 'em Harley!
With a thread like this, and Les & Harley checking in, I'm bunkering in and putting on a helmet!
As far as discounts getting around, Les, I never "kiss and tell" on any prices I get. I will always say "around a thousand", or "between five and seven hundred", etc.. That way people get an idea where they need to be if they want to buy a similar piece, but they can't go to the dealer/maker and pin them down with my price.
With a thread like this, and Les & Harley checking in, I'm bunkering in and putting on a helmet!
As far as discounts getting around, Les, I never "kiss and tell" on any prices I get. I will always say "around a thousand", or "between five and seven hundred", etc.. That way people get an idea where they need to be if they want to buy a similar piece, but they can't go to the dealer/maker and pin them down with my price.
- Joined
- Aug 1, 1999
- Messages
- 3,036
I am incorporated Les, subchapter S. I've also spent 30+ years in the business world, mostly in sales and marketing, having been among other things division vice president of two Fortune 500 companies.
And I've been in this business long enough to know something about the pressures a maker feels to do what he has to do. On more than one occassion I've even given a knife away at a show, because it felt good. We all hear and march to our own drums for our own purposes, which are likely not the same as yours.
------------------
Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
The Tom & Jerry Show
And I've been in this business long enough to know something about the pressures a maker feels to do what he has to do. On more than one occassion I've even given a knife away at a show, because it felt good. We all hear and march to our own drums for our own purposes, which are likely not the same as yours.
------------------
Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
The Tom & Jerry Show
larry harley
BANNED
- Joined
- Mar 19, 1999
- Messages
- 516
Originally posted by Brian_Turner:
Whoo Hoo! Harley's here! You tell 'em Harley!
With a thread like this, and Les & Harley checking in, I'm bunkering in and putting on a helmet!
les has a whoile secret collection of knives w jigged bone and mokume
harley
www.lonesomepioneknives.com
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dogman
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Jul 26, 1999
- Messages
- 1,103
Jigged bone, mokume and AUS-8 steel;D
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"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
George Orwell
<A HREF="http://www.doggettcustomknives.com" TARGET=_blank>
</A><A HREF="http://www.customknifedirectory.com" TARGET=_blank>
</A>
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"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
George Orwell
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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by larry harley:
les has a whoile secret collection of knives w jigged bone and mokume
harley
www.lonesomepioneknives.com
</font>
Les wouldn't buy no jigged bone, even if you gave him that hefty dealer discount! Of course, after a couple of Harley's poison cherries you could probably convince him...